[Blindtlk] Resolution that didn't pass about apple
Steve Jacobson
steve.jacobson at visi.com
Thu Sep 8 20:49:41 UTC 2011
Ray,
That is how I see it, and the Windows environment will look more like Apple's. There will be good in it and there will be challenges.
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Thu, 8 Sep 2011 14:20:26 -0500, Ray Foret Jr wrote:
>Well, windows screen readers as we know them now may well have to change given that windows 8 will not include any mirror driers.
>Sincerely,
>The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!
>Skype name:
>barefootedray
>Facebook:
>facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1
>On Sep 8, 2011, at 9:21 AM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
>> Dave,
>>
>> As you know, I agree with you completely but have additional reservations about the future. One of the problems within the Windows environment has
>> been that it is really pretty complex to get the information needed out of Windows. One bit part of this process has been the off-screen model that I
referred
>> to that creates within a screen reader a text model of what is on the screen and where it is located. My feeling, to elaborate on yours, has always been
that
>> I was uneasy having one screen reader with one way of doing things. Over the years, there has been a number of cases where either Window-Eyes or
>> JFW was able to do something the other didn't do. Added to that is the fact that I have trouble believing that if Microsoft was doing work on a screen
>> reader that they would work as hard getting it to work on a competing product. Many of us in employment situations use products that compete with
>> Outlook, for example.
>>
>> For better or worse, Apple has changed the game some. In addition, it is my understanding that Windows 8 will no longer allow the hooks that are used
to
>> create an off-screen model. This does not mean screen readers are dead, but it means that the Windows world will resemble more closely the Apple
world
>> where software will have to conform to tighter rules to be accessible. It will be harder to script around obstacles in software. This will further mean that
>> screen readers for Windows in the future will probably be easier to write and be cheaper, and Apple's pressure might very well cause Microsoft to include
a
>> screen reader. What this means for the commercial screen reader is hard to say, but they will probably concentrate on making software easier to use
and
>> perhaps have a more reliable and less complicated screen reader in the long run. As a result, we are going to be more dependent than we are now on
>> software developers to make their software accessible. Software will tend more to be either accessible or not accessible with little middle ground and
with a
>> lesser ability to compensate within our screen readers for inaccessible software. I do not personally think this is a choice to be made but something that
is
>> almost a certainty to happen. The kinds of tools that might be available to enhance how we use software in the future is not completely clear, and there
will
>> be some software that will likely work better. Operating systems with screen readers should also be more stable. However, we are going to need more
help
>> than ever to get software developers to include accessibility in their software. Forgetting whether these resolutions were the best way to go, it is
extremely
>> important that Apple, who exercises so much control over applications that appear on its devices, do what it can to promote accessibility within software
>> development. Please note that I am not saying they don't do this at all now, because I don't honestly know exactly what they do, but to some degree
they
>> will be setting the example for the future. Just as Microsoft may need to include a screen reader because of what Apple has done, there will be a
tendency
>> for other companies to follow Apple's model for promoting accessibility as well. If either apple or Microsoft adopts the model that I too often see in other
>> companies who shal remain nameless, that they provide the tools for accessibility for developers to use so their obligations are met even when those
tools
>> are not used, I think we'll be in reall trouble in the future. If we can continue increasing the awareness of accessibility and get help from companies such
as
>> Apple and Microsoft to make accessibility easier to implement, our computing futures will actually have a chance to be brighter.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>> .
>> On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 20:38:44 -0500, David Andrews wrote:
>>
>>> Joseph:
>>
>>> This is different from the resolutions -- but I
>>> think there are some bad trends in assistive
>>> technology, and Apple is at the core of them. I
>>> say this with mixed feelings. They are to be
>>> commended for much of what they have done, they
>>> have shown that a touch screen UI could be made
>>> accessible. On the other hand, their free
>>> product, voice over, will pressure Microsoft to
>>> offer a free screen reader too. The word is that
>>> the next version of Windows with Narrator will be
>>> substantially beefed up. Once there is a free
>>> screen reader from MS, many people will stop
>>> buying JAWS and the like. It is unlikely that
>>> the free products will have all the stuff we need
>>> to make employment sites accessible. Voiceover
>>> doesn't, it works or it doesn't. I don't think
>>> any of us want to be dependent on our employment
>>> from what Microsoft or Apple do for free.
>>
>>> Also, on the iDevices, inexpensive apps have
>>> become the norm. So, people in the blind
>>> community want, and expect $2 and $5 apps
>>> too. NO AT developer can make money selling
>>> stuff for $2, the market is just to small.
>>
>>> I am afraid there are some unforeseen
>>> consequences to what Apple has and is doing. And
>>> ... you want us to be grateful and kiss up to them.
>>
>>> Dave
>>
>>> \At 04:39 AM 9/6/2011, you wrote:
>>>> Dave, I don't think it's unreasonable to be a
>>>> bit miffed under the circumstances. So far the
>>>> NFB is 1 for 3 when it comes to recognizing the
>>>> effort they've put into creating accessibility
>>>> (and inventing new technology to do it pretty
>>>> much from scratch). And the only reason the NFB
>>>> is even 1 for 3 is because the misrepresentation
>>>> of the capabilities and functions of VoiceOver
>>>> were so profound that EVERYBODY who'd ever
>>>> actually used it screamed foul. The NFB's track
>>>> record with Apple is pretty poor, so from their
>>>> perspective it's got to look like we're shooting
>>>> our mouths off once again, without the faintest
>>>> clue what we're talking about. We've certainly
>>>> done so in the past. Which, in point of fact, WE
>>>> ARE. If Apple starts telling me that I cannot
>>>> have a certain kind of program, I'm going to
>>>> tell them to stick it and go write for
>>>> Android. It's happened before. Actually, it's
>>>> happened rather a lot. The entire world is
>>>> clamoring for Apple to cut that crap out. And
>>>> while their customers who give them money are
>>>> demanding they stop placing restrictions on
>>>> apps, the NFB is arguing the opposite. And
>>>> trying to condemn them for not doing so without
>>>> being told. You can mince words all you like,
>>>> but the fact is that the NFB screwed the pooch
>>>> bigtime with these two resolutions. We made
>>>> enemies of people who should be our
>>>> friends. We've belittled the people who made
>>>> the touch screen accessible once too often, and
>>>> they are sick of it. We've badmouthed the
>>>> people who made accessibility free, rather than
>>>> more than the cost of the computer you're
>>>> running it on once too often, and they resent
>>>> it. We've made it clear that we are not willing
>>>> to work WITH them, only to dictate terms TO
>>>> them, and they think we can take a hike. Apple
>>>> accessibility does not NEED the NFB. They're
>>>> doing a damned fine job without us, while we
>>>> have done little but baselessly snipe at them
>>>> from the sidelines. They plan to continue to
>>>> improve the state of the art, including the
>>>> state of the art for accessibility. If Peter is
>>>> a fair example of a Federationist, the NFB has
>>>> no desire to actually help them do it. On the
>>>> contrary, we want to cost them developers,
>>>> customers, revenue, and all based on a
>>>> pie-in-the-sky notion that there should never be
>>>> any software we can't use. And dammit, if Adobe
>>>> can't make Photoshop accessible, then they
>>>> should be FORBIDDEN from releasing the program
>>>> on Apple devices! I think someone estimated that
>>>> 75% of Macs have Photoshop installed, by the
>>>> way. Joseph On Mon, Sep 05, 2011 at 02:30:38PM
>>>> -0500, David Andrews wrote: >Joseph, I think
>>>> things should have, and could have been
>>>> handled >differently, and better, but on the
>>>> other side, Apple needs to get a >thicker
>>>> skin. The more successful they are, the more
>>>> they will be >criticized and questioned. They
>>>> can't have it both ways. They can't >make all
>>>> the decisions and not expect any push
>>>> back. > >Dave > >At 10:47 AM 9/5/2011, you
>>>> wrote: >>I know several Apple employees
>>>> personally. I cannot really say >>more, because
>>>> Apple is a company full of
>>>> secrets. ANY >>communication that does not
>>>> happen through official channels is >>subject to
>>>> employees losing their jobs. (Add that to the
>>>> list of >>Apple as big brother.) There's no
>>>> chance that we're going to lose >>the
>>>> accessibility in Apple products, but the hostile
>>>> relationship >>Peter Donahue and others want the
>>>> NFB to have with Apple is now a >>fact of
>>>> life. Apple will continue to work on
>>>> accessibility, but at >>least those I've talked
>>>> to don't have much love for the NFB
>>>> for >>undermining and belittling their hard
>>>> work. IMO, that's exactly >>what we did. Joseph
>>>> On Sun, Sep 04, 2011 at 09:10:18AM -0500,
>>>> Ray >>Foret Jr wrote: >Say, How do you know for
>>>> sure that the people at >>Apple are now
>>>> unwilling to work with us? I fear we are
>>>> really >>going down the wrong road now. My hope
>>>> is that this situation is >>not
>>>> irreparable. What I intend to do with this is
>>>> write and open >>letter to Dr. Maurer about this
>>>> and include many of the points we >>discussed
>>>> here. Look, it seems to me that we can choose
>>>> the more >>hostile relationship; in which case
>>>> we stand a chance of loosing >>what
>>>> accessibility to Apple we already have; or, we
>>>> can choose to >>try to repair what we can and
>>>> build a positive relationship and get >>working
>>>> together on this. IF we let Anger be the
>>>> driving force >>behind what we do, we will
>>>> destroy all the good work we've done
>>>> so >>far. I see us changing; and, frankly, I do
>>>> not like it. It seems >>to me that we're
>>>> running the risk of loosing something
>>>> very >>valuable as an organization. I'm afraid
>>>> that if we keep this up, >>we'll have happen to
>>>> us what Dr. Jernigan warned us about in
>>>> his >>banquet speech in 1997. > >What are we
>>>> becoming when we let this >>happen to
>>>> us? > > >Sincerely, >The Constantly Barefooted
>>>> Ray!!! > >>>Now a very proud and happy Mac
>>>> user!!! > >Skype
>>>> name: >>>barefootedray > >Facebook: >facebook.com
>>>> /r ay.foretjr.1 > > > >On >>Sep 4, 2011, at 8:00
>>>> AM, T. Joseph Carter wrote: > >> I can
>>>> tell >>you that people in Apple's accessibility
>>>> department have reacted >>negatively enough to
>>>> BOTH of the resolutions that they are not
>>>> the >>least bit inclined to work with us in the
>>>> future. >> >> I believe >>the exact words, at
>>>> least those I'm willing to quote here on
>>>> the >>mailing list, were that the NFB can go to
>>>> hell. I won't say where >>this individual said
>>>> we could stick our
>>>> resolutions. >> >> >>Corporate policy remains
>>>> 100% accessibility, but we have
>>>> alienated >>Apple who is trying to do the right
>>>> thing while we suck up to >>Google for their
>>>> continued bad behavior. >> >> The resolutions
>>>> were >>both seen at Apple, and they've already
>>>> had an impact on Apple's >>willingness to work
>>>> with us to further improve
>>>> accessibility. Just >>Â& not the impact anyone
>>>> but Freedom Scientific was hoping for. >> >>>>
>>>> But Apple is evil, so it doesn't matter. And
>>>> Google is awesome, >>so who cares if they do
>>>> anything
>>>> accessibly? Right?
>>>> Right? >> >> >>Joseph >> >> >> On Sat, Sep 03,
>>>> 2011 at 06:17:46PM -0500, Ray Foret >>Jr
>>>> wrote: >>> But, Peter, I ask you. Would you be
>>>> forever in a war >>camp mode? Just think of the
>>>> resolution concerning Google and the >>ones
>>>> concerning Apple. Why the disparity? A fair
>>>> question I >>think. >>> >>> >>> Sincerely, >>>
>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!! >>>>> >>> Now a
>>>> very proud and happy Mac user!!! >>> >>> Skype
>>>> name: >>>>> barefootedray >>> >>> Facebook: >>>
>>>> facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1 >>>>> >>> >>> >>> On
>>>> Sep 3, 2011, at 3:48 PM, Peter Donahue
>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>> Hello Ray and
>>>> everyone, >>>> >>>> The wording was fine. >>It's
>>>> the "Let's be grateful" attitude that makes
>>>> folks >>>> feel >>otherwise. >>>> >>>> Peter
>>>> Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original >>Message
>>>> ----- >>>> From: "Ray Foret Jr"
>>>> <rforetjr at att.net> >>>> To: >>"Blind Talk
>>>> Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org> >>>>
>>>> Sent: >>Saturday, September 03, 2011 3:23
>>>> PM >>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] >>Resolution
>>>> that didn't pass about apple >>>> >>>> >>>> Not
>>>> with me >>Peter. We need to strongly encourage
>>>> people, not bitch at them. >>>>>> We need to
>>>> change the wording of the resolution so that it
>>>> has >>the desired >>>> effect without being
>>>> bitchy about it. There are >>times we need to
>>>> use a >>>> hammer, and other times, a feather
>>>> will >>do just as well. So, we commend >>>>
>>>> Google for trying to be >>accessible but bitch
>>>> at Apple even though they are >>>>
>>>> more >>accessible than Google? Tell me, is it
>>>> because Google paid us >>money, >>>> (being a
>>>> sponsor of our convention) and Apple
>>>> didn't? >>What kind of outfit >>>> are we when
>>>> we stoop to that level? >>>> >>>>>> Sorry for
>>>> the language, but, that's the way it
>>>> is. >>>> >>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>> The
>>>> Constantly Barefooted Ray!!! >>>> >>>> Now >>a
>>>> very proud and happy Mac user!!! >>>> >>>> Skype
>>>> name: >>>> >>barefootedray >>>> >>>>
>>>> Facebook: >>>>
>>>> facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1 >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>> On Sep 3, 2011, at 2:58 PM, Peter
>>>> Donahue >>wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello Cheryl and
>>>> everyone, >>>>> >>>>> The >>wording was fine
>>>> with me. >>>>> >>>>> Peter
>>>> Donahue >>>>> >>>>> >>----- Original Message
>>>> ----- >>>>> From: "cheryl
>>>> echevarria" >><cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com> >>>>>
>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing
>>>> List" >><blindtlk at nfbnet.org> >>>>> Sent:
>>>> Saturday, September 03, 2011 >>12:25 PM >>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Resolution that didn't
>>>> pass >>about apple >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The issue
>>>> was the wording of the >>Resolution, if I
>>>> remember correctly, that >>>>> it was to
>>>> harsh, >>and for it to pass that we all had to
>>>> agree on the >>>>> wording. >>>>>>> >>>>> it has
>>>> nothing to do with the Resolution as a
>>>> whole, >>but the wording of >>>>> the >>>>>
>>>> resolution couldn't be passed, >>it can be
>>>> brought to the floor of >>>>> convention >>>>>
>>>> next year, >>to be voted on
>>>> again >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Leading the Way
>>>> in >>Independent Travel! >>>>> >>>>> Cheryl
>>>> Echevarria >>>>> >>http://www.echevarriatravel.co
>>>> m >>>>>
>>>> 631-456-5394 >>>>> >>reservations at echevarriatrave
>>>> l.com >>>>> >>>>> Affiliated as an >>Independent
>>>> Contractor with Superior Travel, located
>>>> in >>>>> >>Baldwin, NY.
>>>> www.superiortravel.com >>>>> >>>>> Affiliated as
>>>> an >>Independent Contractor with Absolute Cruise
>>>> & Travel, >>>>> Inc. >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----
>>>> Original Message ----- >>>>> From:
>>>> "cheryl >>echevarria"
>>>> <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com> >>>>> To: "Blind
>>>> Talk >>Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org> >>>>>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, September >>03, 2011 12:58
>>>> PM >>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Resolution that
>>>> didn't >>pass about apple >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> Well maybe people on this list >>that voted
>>>> against it elaborate as to why >>>>>> they voted
>>>> against >>it. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Leading the
>>>> Way in Independent Travel! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> Cheryl
>>>> Echevarria >>>>>> >>http://www.echevarriatravel.c
>>>> om >>>>>>
>>>> 631-456-5394 >>>>>> >>reservations at echevarriatrav
>>>> el.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Affiliated as
>>>> an >>Independent Contractor with Superior
>>>> Travel, located in >>>>>> >>Baldwin, NY.
>>>> www.superiortravel.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Affiliated
>>>> as an >>Independent Contractor with Absolute
>>>> Cruise & Travel, >>>>>>
>>>> Inc. >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original
>>>> Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Ray >>Foret Jr"
>>>> <rforetjr at att.net> >>>>>> To: "Blind Talk
>>>> Mailing List" >><blindtlk at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>
>>>> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011
>>>> 4:56 >>PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] [Bulk]
>>>> Re: a great article >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ah
>>>> yes, I have a recording of the stream of
>>>> that >>particular days' >>>>>>> events. I must
>>>> say, that was quite
>>>> an >>episode. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> The Constantly >>Barefooted
>>>> Ray!!! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now a very proud and
>>>> happy Mac >>user!!! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Skype
>>>> name: >>>>>>> barefootedray >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> Facebook: >>>>>>>
>>>> facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 2, 2011, at 3:31 PM, Marsha
>>>> Drenth >>wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> An example of
>>>> not all of us following like >>zombies, at the
>>>> national >>>>>>>> convention. A resolution
>>>> about >>apple. Don't quite remember the >>>>>>>>
>>>> wordage, but >>>>>>>> it >>did not pass. More
>>>> than half of the floor voted against it. If
>>>> you >>>>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>> at the convention
>>>> you would know what I am >>talking
>>>> about. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was one of the many
>>>> who voted >>against the resolution. I didn't
>>>> think >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> was >>fair, and not
>>>> something the NFB needed to make an resolution
>>>> for. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Others are welcome to
>>>> chime in
>>>> here... >>>>>>>> >>Marsha >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From:
>>>> blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org >>[mailto:blindtlk-bo
>>>> unces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of >>Bryan Schulz >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday,
>>>> September 01, 2011 10:19 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: Blind
>>>> Talk Mailing List >>>>>>>> Subject:
>>>> Re: >>[Blindtlk] a great
>>>> article >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>no point in rehashing
>>>> the lost funds as they have been forgiven
>>>> in >>the >>>>>>>> midwest. >>>>>>>> i was the
>>>> only one to push the issue >>and was blasted for
>>>> it. it's >>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>> like
>>>> that >>which make the nfb taste
>>>> bitter. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Not all of us >>just
>>>> follow in line like zombies. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>> I'd like to see >>more examples of
>>>> that. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bryan
>>>> Schulz >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original
>>>> Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Marsha >>Drenth"
>>>> <marsha.drenth at gmail.com> >>>>>>>> To: "'Blind
>>>> Talk Mailing >>List'"
>>>> <blindtlk at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday,
>>>> September 01, >>2011 8:14 PM >>>>>>>> Subject:
>>>> Re: [Blindtlk] a great
>>>> article >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This
>>>> thread is very tiring, very >>frustrating and
>>>> gets us no where. So >>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>
>>>> us >>>>>>>>>>> NFB members never ask the tough
>>>> questions, and look the >>other way. >>>>>>>>>
>>>> What >>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>> the
>>>> illegal >>behavior your speaking of? I am pretty
>>>> sure if there was >>>>>>>>> >>any >>>>>>>>>
>>>> illegal behavior, we just as much any other
>>>> person >>would ask the >>>>>>>>>
>>>> "tough" >>>>>>>>> questions. Not all of
>>>> us >>just follow in line like
>>>> zombies. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If your
>>>> so >>anti-NFB, why do you hang out here. Your
>>>> welcome to leave >>>>>>>>> >>any >>>>>>>>> time.
>>>> We would rather you go away. So our list can
>>>> go >>back to being >>>>>>>>> constructive and
>>>> productive. Oh wait that >>is right, we are all
>>>> lyres, >>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>> allow
>>>> illegal >>behavior, and follow like zombies. You
>>>> can think what >>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>> want.
>>>> But this skirting around subjects does nothing.
>>>> We >>are not >>>>>>>>> going to >>>>>>>>> change
>>>> our minds about what
>>>> we >>think. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> Marsha >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>
>>>> From: >>blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>[
>>>> mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>>
>>>> Behalf Of Bryan >>Schulz >>>>>>>>> Sent:
>>>> Thursday, September 01, 2011 7:07 PM >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List >>>>>>>>> Subject:
>>>> Re: >>[Blindtlk] a great
>>>> article >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> hi, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> no, i'm not accusing
>>>> anyone, the event already happened. >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> the point is don't ask tough questions unless
>>>> you have >>thick skin. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Bryan
>>>> Schulz >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>----- Original
>>>> Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "T. Joseph
>>>> Carter" >><carter.tjoseph at gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>
>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing
>>>> List" >><blindtlk at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>> Sent:
>>>> Thursday, September 01, 2011 >>5:49 PM >>>>>>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] a great
>>>> article >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I see,
>>>> my mistake. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You >>aren't
>>>> taking pot shots at the ACB without facts to
>>>> back it up. >>>>>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>>> are
>>>> taking pot shots at the NFB
>>>> without >>facts. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It takes
>>>> a lot of guts to come into an >>organization and
>>>> start >>>>>>>>>> accusing >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> its >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> members of vaguely
>>>> illegal activities without offering >>any
>>>> specifics >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> evidence. But I'm sure >>doing so will get you
>>>> all the consideration >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> you're >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>> due. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And with that,
>>>> I >>think I'm about finished with the
>>>> discussion. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>Joseph -
>>>> KF7QZC >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu,
>>>> Sep 01, >>2011 at 05:36:54PM -0500, Bryan Schulz
>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> hi, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> no, i'm not talking about the acb but
>>>> the >>point still
>>>> applies. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Bryan
>>>> Schulz >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original
>>>> Message ----- From: "T. >>Joseph
>>>> Carter" >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> <carter.tjoseph at gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>> >>To:
>>>> "Blind Talk Mailing List"
>>>> <blindtlk at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>> >>Sent:
>>>> Thursday, September 01, 2011 5:09 PM >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: >>[Blindtlk] a great
>>>> article >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> I >>suggest if that helps you maximize your
>>>> involvement with and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> benefit >>>>>>>>>>>> from an organization, you
>>>> find >>another
>>>> organization. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps
>>>> though, we >>don't want to go down this road, or
>>>> at least >>>>>>>>>>>> not in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>> fashion. The ACB has in the past allowed
>>>> its >>members to make >>>>>>>>>>>> baseless,
>>>> unsupported, and uncontested >>claims of illegal
>>>> behavior >>>>>>>>>>>> by the >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> NFB. >>It was rather off-putting, and I'd have
>>>> thought so even if I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> were >>>>>>>>>>>> not a Federationist! Indeed,
>>>> it >>seems always to be so, in any >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> organization, whether or >>not I have any
>>>> affiliation with
>>>> anybody. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>If there's
>>>> something new and recent that needs to be
>>>> discussed >>>>>>>>>>>>>> regarding >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> the ACB, we should probably do >>it, but in a
>>>> new thread with the >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> relevant >>>>>>>>>>>> >>details. If it's a
>>>> rehash of old wrongdoings by former
>>>> officers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> don't >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> know how >>useful
>>>> it would be to debate today. It's like
>>>> discussing >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> questionable action taken by Janet Reno >>while
>>>> she worked for Bill >>>>>>>>>>>> Clinton. Anyone
>>>> personally >>affected would find it relevant,
>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>> society >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a
>>>> whole wouldn't be interested
>>>> today. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sometimes the
>>>> bad guys get away with it. Usually when >>the
>>>> good >>>>>>>>>>>> guys >>>>>>>>>>>> don't stand
>>>> up to them >>until its too late. But that takes
>>>> me off >>>>>>>>>>>> on my >>>>>>>>>>>>>> own
>>>> tangent. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Joseph -
>>>> KF7QZC >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at >>03:53:02PM -0500,
>>>> Bryan Schulz wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> hi, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> there should
>>>> be at least one more. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> #16. Don't
>>>> ask tough questions even when a member >>does
>>>> something >>>>>>>>>>>>> questionable and
>>>> probably illegal. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> Bryan Schulz >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----
>>>> Original Message ----- From: "Chris
>>>> Nusbaum" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To:
>>>> "NABS >>list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>; "Blind Talk
>>>> list" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >><blindtlk at nfbnet.org>;
>>>> "Gary Legates"
>>>> <gary.legates at comcast.net> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent:
>>>> Thursday, September 01, 2011 3:02
>>>> PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] a great
>>>> article >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi
>>>> everyone, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I
>>>> try to learn more about both organizations,
>>>> I >>have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> subscribed
>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> both the Braille >>Monitor and
>>>> the Braille Forum. The Monitor,
>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know, is
>>>> the Federation (NFB's) publication and
>>>> the >>Forum is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> Council (or ACB's) >>publication. I found a
>>>> great article in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> July's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Forum entitled "Fifteen
>>>> Ways to Maximize your
>>>> ACB >>Membership," >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> giving >>>>>>>>>>>>>> fifteen tips on >>how to
>>>> take advantage of all ACB (or
>>>> any >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>organization, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> for that matter) has to offer. I >>think this
>>>> could also apply to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Federation and to NABS or
>>>> any other special-interest
>>>> division, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> some good advice. To be >>accurate, I added "or
>>>> NFB" in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> parentheses
>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some parts of the
>>>> article. I have pasted the >>article
>>>> below. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> thoughts on this? >>I promise I'm not trying to
>>>> force the ACB down >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> throats; in fact, I'm a
>>>> Federationist in nature, but >>want
>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> learn >>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>> both. Here is >>the
>>>> article. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 15 WAYS
>>>> TO MAXIMIZE YOUR >>ACB (or NFB)
>>>> MEMBERSHIP >>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Kenneth Semien
>>>> Sr. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All too often, people join
>>>> organizations without >>taking >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> advantage of the opportunity to truly
>>>> know >>intricate details of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> its >>>>>>>>>>>>>> purpose, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> mission, and operating practices. This can
>>>> very >>well result in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>> lack >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> participation and could ultimately result in
>>>> a >>decision to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> forfeit >>>>>>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> could have been the ideal vehicle to enhance
>>>> your >>life, build >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> great >>>>>>>>>>>>>> relationships
>>>> and >>effectively share personal skills
>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> abilities
>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>>> make an
>>>> enormous difference. In >>an effort to
>>>> encourage you to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> explore >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> meaningful efforts of ACB, I have included
>>>> the >>tips listed below >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> assist >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you in
>>>> being all you can be and help you join
>>>> with >>others whose >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>>>> complement
>>>> yours. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Be inquisitive and
>>>> don't hesitate to
>>>> ask >>questions. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Become
>>>> familiar with the history, >>mission, and
>>>> purpose by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reviewing it often
>>>> enough to >>be able to repeat it to
>>>> others. In >>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> someone may realize that this is the
>>>> organization >>they have been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> looking >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> 3. Make a personal commitment to identify ways
>>>> to >>get involved. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4. Find out
>>>> who the officers are and >>become acquainted
>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> them and their roles
>>>> and >>responsibilities, as well as
>>>> members >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> observe >>>>>>>>>>>>>> actively participating
>>>> in >>events and projects associated
>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> organization. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5. Make your
>>>> skills >>and abilities known to leaders of
>>>> your >>>>>>>>>>>>>> chapter, >>affiliate, or the
>>>> president of our organization. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> 6. >>Make every effort to participate in
>>>> chapter, state affiliate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>> national meetings, seminars, conferences
>>>> and >>conventions. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7. Inquire
>>>> about available committees >>you may be able to
>>>> serve >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on to assist
>>>> the >>organization in achieving its goals
>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> objectives. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> Seek >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to join committees that
>>>> allow >>you to utilize your skills
>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> abilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the most effective and
>>>> efficient >>manner. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8. If you
>>>> have access to the Internet, sign >>up for
>>>> up-to-date >>>>>>>>>>>>>> news and announcements
>>>> from all >>levels of our
>>>> organization. Ask >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>president >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>> member to tell you how to take >>advantage of
>>>> this option. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 9. Listen to or
>>>> read >>publications/newsletters distributed
>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> organization on all levels. This is one of the
>>>> best >>ways to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> learn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>useful resources, access
>>>> inspirational stories,
>>>> scholarships, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> awards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> upcoming >>projects and events. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> 10. Identify special-interest >>groups that
>>>> meet your personal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> needs. These
>>>> groups >>provide you the opportunity to network
>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> others >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> sharing common interests, such as your prior
>>>> or >>current >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> occupation, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> hobbies, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> health concerns and so
>>>> much more. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 11. >>Obtain your own
>>>> copy of the constitution and bylaws
>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> learn >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>> agreed-upon operating >>practices and procedures
>>>> of our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> organization. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 12. Prepare for
>>>> future involvement as an officer
>>>> by >>becoming >>>>>>>>>>>>>> familiar with
>>>> officer titles and duties. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> 13. Participate in conference calls to build
>>>> your >>knowledge, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> such as
>>>> membership focus calls, periodic >>Office Hours
>>>> conference >>>>>>>>>>>>>> calls >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ACB president,
>>>> committee calls, and >>special-interest
>>>> group >>>>>>>>>>>>>> calls. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> 14. >>Explore the web sites of your chapter,
>>>> state affiliate and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our
>>>> national organization. You may
>>>> locate >>information on the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> web
>>>> site >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>> didn't think of inquiring
>>>> about. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>15. Pay your annual
>>>> dues faithfully and encourage others to
>>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>> more you know and the >>more you become
>>>> involved, the more you >>>>>>>>>>>>>> will begin
>>>> to >>know that you have joined a
>>>> phenomenal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> organization >>that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> continuing to grow. Have
>>>> a >>great ACB (or NFB)
>>>> adventure! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris >>Nusbaum >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
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