[Blindtlk] Resolution that didn't pass about apple
Ray Foret Jr
rforetjr at att.net
Thu Sep 8 19:20:26 UTC 2011
Well, windows screen readers as we know them now may well have to change given that windows 8 will not include any mirror driers.
Sincerely,
The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!
Skype name:
barefootedray
Facebook:
facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1
On Sep 8, 2011, at 9:21 AM, Steve Jacobson wrote:
> Dave,
>
> As you know, I agree with you completely but have additional reservations about the future. One of the problems within the Windows environment has
> been that it is really pretty complex to get the information needed out of Windows. One bit part of this process has been the off-screen model that I referred
> to that creates within a screen reader a text model of what is on the screen and where it is located. My feeling, to elaborate on yours, has always been that
> I was uneasy having one screen reader with one way of doing things. Over the years, there has been a number of cases where either Window-Eyes or
> JFW was able to do something the other didn't do. Added to that is the fact that I have trouble believing that if Microsoft was doing work on a screen
> reader that they would work as hard getting it to work on a competing product. Many of us in employment situations use products that compete with
> Outlook, for example.
>
> For better or worse, Apple has changed the game some. In addition, it is my understanding that Windows 8 will no longer allow the hooks that are used to
> create an off-screen model. This does not mean screen readers are dead, but it means that the Windows world will resemble more closely the Apple world
> where software will have to conform to tighter rules to be accessible. It will be harder to script around obstacles in software. This will further mean that
> screen readers for Windows in the future will probably be easier to write and be cheaper, and Apple's pressure might very well cause Microsoft to include a
> screen reader. What this means for the commercial screen reader is hard to say, but they will probably concentrate on making software easier to use and
> perhaps have a more reliable and less complicated screen reader in the long run. As a result, we are going to be more dependent than we are now on
> software developers to make their software accessible. Software will tend more to be either accessible or not accessible with little middle ground and with a
> lesser ability to compensate within our screen readers for inaccessible software. I do not personally think this is a choice to be made but something that is
> almost a certainty to happen. The kinds of tools that might be available to enhance how we use software in the future is not completely clear, and there will
> be some software that will likely work better. Operating systems with screen readers should also be more stable. However, we are going to need more help
> than ever to get software developers to include accessibility in their software. Forgetting whether these resolutions were the best way to go, it is extremely
> important that Apple, who exercises so much control over applications that appear on its devices, do what it can to promote accessibility within software
> development. Please note that I am not saying they don't do this at all now, because I don't honestly know exactly what they do, but to some degree they
> will be setting the example for the future. Just as Microsoft may need to include a screen reader because of what Apple has done, there will be a tendency
> for other companies to follow Apple's model for promoting accessibility as well. If either apple or Microsoft adopts the model that I too often see in other
> companies who shal remain nameless, that they provide the tools for accessibility for developers to use so their obligations are met even when those tools
> are not used, I think we'll be in reall trouble in the future. If we can continue increasing the awareness of accessibility and get help from companies such as
> Apple and Microsoft to make accessibility easier to implement, our computing futures will actually have a chance to be brighter.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
> .
> On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 20:38:44 -0500, David Andrews wrote:
>
>> Joseph:
>
>> This is different from the resolutions -- but I
>> think there are some bad trends in assistive
>> technology, and Apple is at the core of them. I
>> say this with mixed feelings. They are to be
>> commended for much of what they have done, they
>> have shown that a touch screen UI could be made
>> accessible. On the other hand, their free
>> product, voice over, will pressure Microsoft to
>> offer a free screen reader too. The word is that
>> the next version of Windows with Narrator will be
>> substantially beefed up. Once there is a free
>> screen reader from MS, many people will stop
>> buying JAWS and the like. It is unlikely that
>> the free products will have all the stuff we need
>> to make employment sites accessible. Voiceover
>> doesn't, it works or it doesn't. I don't think
>> any of us want to be dependent on our employment
>> from what Microsoft or Apple do for free.
>
>> Also, on the iDevices, inexpensive apps have
>> become the norm. So, people in the blind
>> community want, and expect $2 and $5 apps
>> too. NO AT developer can make money selling
>> stuff for $2, the market is just to small.
>
>> I am afraid there are some unforeseen
>> consequences to what Apple has and is doing. And
>> ... you want us to be grateful and kiss up to them.
>
>> Dave
>
>> \At 04:39 AM 9/6/2011, you wrote:
>>> Dave, I don't think it's unreasonable to be a
>>> bit miffed under the circumstances. So far the
>>> NFB is 1 for 3 when it comes to recognizing the
>>> effort they've put into creating accessibility
>>> (and inventing new technology to do it pretty
>>> much from scratch). And the only reason the NFB
>>> is even 1 for 3 is because the misrepresentation
>>> of the capabilities and functions of VoiceOver
>>> were so profound that EVERYBODY who'd ever
>>> actually used it screamed foul. The NFB's track
>>> record with Apple is pretty poor, so from their
>>> perspective it's got to look like we're shooting
>>> our mouths off once again, without the faintest
>>> clue what we're talking about. We've certainly
>>> done so in the past. Which, in point of fact, WE
>>> ARE. If Apple starts telling me that I cannot
>>> have a certain kind of program, I'm going to
>>> tell them to stick it and go write for
>>> Android. It's happened before. Actually, it's
>>> happened rather a lot. The entire world is
>>> clamoring for Apple to cut that crap out. And
>>> while their customers who give them money are
>>> demanding they stop placing restrictions on
>>> apps, the NFB is arguing the opposite. And
>>> trying to condemn them for not doing so without
>>> being told. You can mince words all you like,
>>> but the fact is that the NFB screwed the pooch
>>> bigtime with these two resolutions. We made
>>> enemies of people who should be our
>>> friends. We've belittled the people who made
>>> the touch screen accessible once too often, and
>>> they are sick of it. We've badmouthed the
>>> people who made accessibility free, rather than
>>> more than the cost of the computer you're
>>> running it on once too often, and they resent
>>> it. We've made it clear that we are not willing
>>> to work WITH them, only to dictate terms TO
>>> them, and they think we can take a hike. Apple
>>> accessibility does not NEED the NFB. They're
>>> doing a damned fine job without us, while we
>>> have done little but baselessly snipe at them
>>> from the sidelines. They plan to continue to
>>> improve the state of the art, including the
>>> state of the art for accessibility. If Peter is
>>> a fair example of a Federationist, the NFB has
>>> no desire to actually help them do it. On the
>>> contrary, we want to cost them developers,
>>> customers, revenue, and all based on a
>>> pie-in-the-sky notion that there should never be
>>> any software we can't use. And dammit, if Adobe
>>> can't make Photoshop accessible, then they
>>> should be FORBIDDEN from releasing the program
>>> on Apple devices! I think someone estimated that
>>> 75% of Macs have Photoshop installed, by the
>>> way. Joseph On Mon, Sep 05, 2011 at 02:30:38PM
>>> -0500, David Andrews wrote: >Joseph, I think
>>> things should have, and could have been
>>> handled >differently, and better, but on the
>>> other side, Apple needs to get a >thicker
>>> skin. The more successful they are, the more
>>> they will be >criticized and questioned. They
>>> can't have it both ways. They can't >make all
>>> the decisions and not expect any push
>>> back. > >Dave > >At 10:47 AM 9/5/2011, you
>>> wrote: >>I know several Apple employees
>>> personally. I cannot really say >>more, because
>>> Apple is a company full of
>>> secrets. ANY >>communication that does not
>>> happen through official channels is >>subject to
>>> employees losing their jobs. (Add that to the
>>> list of >>Apple as big brother.) There's no
>>> chance that we're going to lose >>the
>>> accessibility in Apple products, but the hostile
>>> relationship >>Peter Donahue and others want the
>>> NFB to have with Apple is now a >>fact of
>>> life. Apple will continue to work on
>>> accessibility, but at >>least those I've talked
>>> to don't have much love for the NFB
>>> for >>undermining and belittling their hard
>>> work. IMO, that's exactly >>what we did. Joseph
>>> On Sun, Sep 04, 2011 at 09:10:18AM -0500,
>>> Ray >>Foret Jr wrote: >Say, How do you know for
>>> sure that the people at >>Apple are now
>>> unwilling to work with us? I fear we are
>>> really >>going down the wrong road now. My hope
>>> is that this situation is >>not
>>> irreparable. What I intend to do with this is
>>> write and open >>letter to Dr. Maurer about this
>>> and include many of the points we >>discussed
>>> here. Look, it seems to me that we can choose
>>> the more >>hostile relationship; in which case
>>> we stand a chance of loosing >>what
>>> accessibility to Apple we already have; or, we
>>> can choose to >>try to repair what we can and
>>> build a positive relationship and get >>working
>>> together on this. IF we let Anger be the
>>> driving force >>behind what we do, we will
>>> destroy all the good work we've done
>>> so >>far. I see us changing; and, frankly, I do
>>> not like it. It seems >>to me that we're
>>> running the risk of loosing something
>>> very >>valuable as an organization. I'm afraid
>>> that if we keep this up, >>we'll have happen to
>>> us what Dr. Jernigan warned us about in
>>> his >>banquet speech in 1997. > >What are we
>>> becoming when we let this >>happen to
>>> us? > > >Sincerely, >The Constantly Barefooted
>>> Ray!!! > >>>Now a very proud and happy Mac
>>> user!!! > >Skype
>>> name: >>>barefootedray > >Facebook: >facebook.com
>>> /r ay.foretjr.1 > > > >On >>Sep 4, 2011, at 8:00
>>> AM, T. Joseph Carter wrote: > >> I can
>>> tell >>you that people in Apple's accessibility
>>> department have reacted >>negatively enough to
>>> BOTH of the resolutions that they are not
>>> the >>least bit inclined to work with us in the
>>> future. >> >> I believe >>the exact words, at
>>> least those I'm willing to quote here on
>>> the >>mailing list, were that the NFB can go to
>>> hell. I won't say where >>this individual said
>>> we could stick our
>>> resolutions. >> >> >>Corporate policy remains
>>> 100% accessibility, but we have
>>> alienated >>Apple who is trying to do the right
>>> thing while we suck up to >>Google for their
>>> continued bad behavior. >> >> The resolutions
>>> were >>both seen at Apple, and they've already
>>> had an impact on Apple's >>willingness to work
>>> with us to further improve
>>> accessibility. Just >>Â& not the impact anyone
>>> but Freedom Scientific was hoping for. >> >>>>
>>> But Apple is evil, so it doesn't matter. And
>>> Google is awesome, >>so who cares if they do
>>> anything
>>> accessibly? Right?
>>> Right? >> >> >>Joseph >> >> >> On Sat, Sep 03,
>>> 2011 at 06:17:46PM -0500, Ray Foret >>Jr
>>> wrote: >>> But, Peter, I ask you. Would you be
>>> forever in a war >>camp mode? Just think of the
>>> resolution concerning Google and the >>ones
>>> concerning Apple. Why the disparity? A fair
>>> question I >>think. >>> >>> >>> Sincerely, >>>
>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!! >>>>> >>> Now a
>>> very proud and happy Mac user!!! >>> >>> Skype
>>> name: >>>>> barefootedray >>> >>> Facebook: >>>
>>> facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1 >>>>> >>> >>> >>> On
>>> Sep 3, 2011, at 3:48 PM, Peter Donahue
>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>> Hello Ray and
>>> everyone, >>>> >>>> The wording was fine. >>It's
>>> the "Let's be grateful" attitude that makes
>>> folks >>>> feel >>otherwise. >>>> >>>> Peter
>>> Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original >>Message
>>> ----- >>>> From: "Ray Foret Jr"
>>> <rforetjr at att.net> >>>> To: >>"Blind Talk
>>> Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org> >>>>
>>> Sent: >>Saturday, September 03, 2011 3:23
>>> PM >>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] >>Resolution
>>> that didn't pass about apple >>>> >>>> >>>> Not
>>> with me >>Peter. We need to strongly encourage
>>> people, not bitch at them. >>>>>> We need to
>>> change the wording of the resolution so that it
>>> has >>the desired >>>> effect without being
>>> bitchy about it. There are >>times we need to
>>> use a >>>> hammer, and other times, a feather
>>> will >>do just as well. So, we commend >>>>
>>> Google for trying to be >>accessible but bitch
>>> at Apple even though they are >>>>
>>> more >>accessible than Google? Tell me, is it
>>> because Google paid us >>money, >>>> (being a
>>> sponsor of our convention) and Apple
>>> didn't? >>What kind of outfit >>>> are we when
>>> we stoop to that level? >>>> >>>>>> Sorry for
>>> the language, but, that's the way it
>>> is. >>>> >>>> >>>>>> Sincerely, >>>> The
>>> Constantly Barefooted Ray!!! >>>> >>>> Now >>a
>>> very proud and happy Mac user!!! >>>> >>>> Skype
>>> name: >>>> >>barefootedray >>>> >>>>
>>> Facebook: >>>>
>>> facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1 >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>
>>> On Sep 3, 2011, at 2:58 PM, Peter
>>> Donahue >>wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello Cheryl and
>>> everyone, >>>>> >>>>> The >>wording was fine
>>> with me. >>>>> >>>>> Peter
>>> Donahue >>>>> >>>>> >>----- Original Message
>>> ----- >>>>> From: "cheryl
>>> echevarria" >><cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com> >>>>>
>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing
>>> List" >><blindtlk at nfbnet.org> >>>>> Sent:
>>> Saturday, September 03, 2011 >>12:25 PM >>>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Resolution that didn't
>>> pass >>about apple >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The issue
>>> was the wording of the >>Resolution, if I
>>> remember correctly, that >>>>> it was to
>>> harsh, >>and for it to pass that we all had to
>>> agree on the >>>>> wording. >>>>>>> >>>>> it has
>>> nothing to do with the Resolution as a
>>> whole, >>but the wording of >>>>> the >>>>>
>>> resolution couldn't be passed, >>it can be
>>> brought to the floor of >>>>> convention >>>>>
>>> next year, >>to be voted on
>>> again >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Leading the Way
>>> in >>Independent Travel! >>>>> >>>>> Cheryl
>>> Echevarria >>>>> >>http://www.echevarriatravel.co
>>> m >>>>>
>>> 631-456-5394 >>>>> >>reservations at echevarriatrave
>>> l.com >>>>> >>>>> Affiliated as an >>Independent
>>> Contractor with Superior Travel, located
>>> in >>>>> >>Baldwin, NY.
>>> www.superiortravel.com >>>>> >>>>> Affiliated as
>>> an >>Independent Contractor with Absolute Cruise
>>> & Travel, >>>>> Inc. >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----
>>> Original Message ----- >>>>> From:
>>> "cheryl >>echevarria"
>>> <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com> >>>>> To: "Blind
>>> Talk >>Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org> >>>>>
>>> Sent: Saturday, September >>03, 2011 12:58
>>> PM >>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Resolution that
>>> didn't >>pass about apple >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>
>>> Well maybe people on this list >>that voted
>>> against it elaborate as to why >>>>>> they voted
>>> against >>it. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Leading the
>>> Way in Independent Travel! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>> Cheryl
>>> Echevarria >>>>>> >>http://www.echevarriatravel.c
>>> om >>>>>>
>>> 631-456-5394 >>>>>> >>reservations at echevarriatrav
>>> el.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Affiliated as
>>> an >>Independent Contractor with Superior
>>> Travel, located in >>>>>> >>Baldwin, NY.
>>> www.superiortravel.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Affiliated
>>> as an >>Independent Contractor with Absolute
>>> Cruise & Travel, >>>>>>
>>> Inc. >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original
>>> Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Ray >>Foret Jr"
>>> <rforetjr at att.net> >>>>>> To: "Blind Talk
>>> Mailing List" >><blindtlk at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>
>>> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011
>>> 4:56 >>PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] [Bulk]
>>> Re: a great article >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ah
>>> yes, I have a recording of the stream of
>>> that >>particular days' >>>>>>> events. I must
>>> say, that was quite
>>> an >>episode. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>> The Constantly >>Barefooted
>>> Ray!!! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now a very proud and
>>> happy Mac >>user!!! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Skype
>>> name: >>>>>>> barefootedray >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> Facebook: >>>>>>>
>>> facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 2, 2011, at 3:31 PM, Marsha
>>> Drenth >>wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> An example of
>>> not all of us following like >>zombies, at the
>>> national >>>>>>>> convention. A resolution
>>> about >>apple. Don't quite remember the >>>>>>>>
>>> wordage, but >>>>>>>> it >>did not pass. More
>>> than half of the floor voted against it. If
>>> you >>>>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>> at the convention
>>> you would know what I am >>talking
>>> about. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was one of the many
>>> who voted >>against the resolution. I didn't
>>> think >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> was >>fair, and not
>>> something the NFB needed to make an resolution
>>> for. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Others are welcome to
>>> chime in
>>> here... >>>>>>>> >>Marsha >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From:
>>> blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org >>[mailto:blindtlk-bo
>>> unces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf
>>> Of >>Bryan Schulz >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday,
>>> September 01, 2011 10:19 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: Blind
>>> Talk Mailing List >>>>>>>> Subject:
>>> Re: >>[Blindtlk] a great
>>> article >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>no point in rehashing
>>> the lost funds as they have been forgiven
>>> in >>the >>>>>>>> midwest. >>>>>>>> i was the
>>> only one to push the issue >>and was blasted for
>>> it. it's >>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>> like
>>> that >>which make the nfb taste
>>> bitter. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Not all of us >>just
>>> follow in line like zombies. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>> I'd like to see >>more examples of
>>> that. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bryan
>>> Schulz >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original
>>> Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Marsha >>Drenth"
>>> <marsha.drenth at gmail.com> >>>>>>>> To: "'Blind
>>> Talk Mailing >>List'"
>>> <blindtlk at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday,
>>> September 01, >>2011 8:14 PM >>>>>>>> Subject:
>>> Re: [Blindtlk] a great
>>> article >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This
>>> thread is very tiring, very >>frustrating and
>>> gets us no where. So >>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>
>>> us >>>>>>>>>>> NFB members never ask the tough
>>> questions, and look the >>other way. >>>>>>>>>
>>> What >>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>> the
>>> illegal >>behavior your speaking of? I am pretty
>>> sure if there was >>>>>>>>> >>any >>>>>>>>>
>>> illegal behavior, we just as much any other
>>> person >>would ask the >>>>>>>>>
>>> "tough" >>>>>>>>> questions. Not all of
>>> us >>just follow in line like
>>> zombies. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If your
>>> so >>anti-NFB, why do you hang out here. Your
>>> welcome to leave >>>>>>>>> >>any >>>>>>>>> time.
>>> We would rather you go away. So our list can
>>> go >>back to being >>>>>>>>> constructive and
>>> productive. Oh wait that >>is right, we are all
>>> lyres, >>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>> allow
>>> illegal >>behavior, and follow like zombies. You
>>> can think what >>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>> want.
>>> But this skirting around subjects does nothing.
>>> We >>are not >>>>>>>>> going to >>>>>>>>> change
>>> our minds about what
>>> we >>think. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> Marsha >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>
>>> From: >>blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>[
>>> mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>>
>>> Behalf Of Bryan >>Schulz >>>>>>>>> Sent:
>>> Thursday, September 01, 2011 7:07 PM >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List >>>>>>>>> Subject:
>>> Re: >>[Blindtlk] a great
>>> article >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>> hi, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> no, i'm not accusing
>>> anyone, the event already happened. >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> the point is don't ask tough questions unless
>>> you have >>thick skin. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Bryan
>>> Schulz >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>----- Original
>>> Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "T. Joseph
>>> Carter" >><carter.tjoseph at gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>
>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing
>>> List" >><blindtlk at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>> Sent:
>>> Thursday, September 01, 2011 >>5:49 PM >>>>>>>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] a great
>>> article >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I see,
>>> my mistake. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You >>aren't
>>> taking pot shots at the ACB without facts to
>>> back it up. >>>>>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>>> are
>>> taking pot shots at the NFB
>>> without >>facts. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It takes
>>> a lot of guts to come into an >>organization and
>>> start >>>>>>>>>> accusing >>>>>>>>>>
>>> its >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> members of vaguely
>>> illegal activities without offering >>any
>>> specifics >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>
>>> evidence. But I'm sure >>doing so will get you
>>> all the consideration >>>>>>>>>>
>>> you're >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> due. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And with that,
>>> I >>think I'm about finished with the
>>> discussion. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>Joseph -
>>> KF7QZC >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu,
>>> Sep 01, >>2011 at 05:36:54PM -0500, Bryan Schulz
>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> hi, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> no, i'm not talking about the acb but
>>> the >>point still
>>> applies. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Bryan
>>> Schulz >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original
>>> Message ----- From: "T. >>Joseph
>>> Carter" >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> <carter.tjoseph at gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>> >>To:
>>> "Blind Talk Mailing List"
>>> <blindtlk at nfbnet.org> >>>>>>>>>>> >>Sent:
>>> Thursday, September 01, 2011 5:09 PM >>>>>>>>>>>
>>> Subject: Re: >>[Blindtlk] a great
>>> article >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> I >>suggest if that helps you maximize your
>>> involvement with and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> benefit >>>>>>>>>>>> from an organization, you
>>> find >>another
>>> organization. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps
>>> though, we >>don't want to go down this road, or
>>> at least >>>>>>>>>>>> not in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>> fashion. The ACB has in the past allowed
>>> its >>members to make >>>>>>>>>>>> baseless,
>>> unsupported, and uncontested >>claims of illegal
>>> behavior >>>>>>>>>>>> by the >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> NFB. >>It was rather off-putting, and I'd have
>>> thought so even if I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> were >>>>>>>>>>>> not a Federationist! Indeed,
>>> it >>seems always to be so, in any >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> organization, whether or >>not I have any
>>> affiliation with
>>> anybody. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>If there's
>>> something new and recent that needs to be
>>> discussed >>>>>>>>>>>>>> regarding >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> the ACB, we should probably do >>it, but in a
>>> new thread with the >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> relevant >>>>>>>>>>>> >>details. If it's a
>>> rehash of old wrongdoings by former
>>> officers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> don't >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> know how >>useful
>>> it would be to debate today. It's like
>>> discussing >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> questionable action taken by Janet Reno >>while
>>> she worked for Bill >>>>>>>>>>>> Clinton. Anyone
>>> personally >>affected would find it relevant,
>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>> society >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a
>>> whole wouldn't be interested
>>> today. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sometimes the
>>> bad guys get away with it. Usually when >>the
>>> good >>>>>>>>>>>> guys >>>>>>>>>>>> don't stand
>>> up to them >>until its too late. But that takes
>>> me off >>>>>>>>>>>> on my >>>>>>>>>>>>>> own
>>> tangent. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Joseph -
>>> KF7QZC >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 01, 2011 at >>03:53:02PM -0500,
>>> Bryan Schulz wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> hi, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> there should
>>> be at least one more. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> #16. Don't
>>> ask tough questions even when a member >>does
>>> something >>>>>>>>>>>>> questionable and
>>> probably illegal. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> Bryan Schulz >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----
>>> Original Message ----- From: "Chris
>>> Nusbaum" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To:
>>> "NABS >>list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>; "Blind Talk
>>> list" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >><blindtlk at nfbnet.org>;
>>> "Gary Legates"
>>> <gary.legates at comcast.net> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent:
>>> Thursday, September 01, 2011 3:02
>>> PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] a great
>>> article >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi
>>> everyone, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I
>>> try to learn more about both organizations,
>>> I >>have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> subscribed
>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> both the Braille >>Monitor and
>>> the Braille Forum. The Monitor,
>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know, is
>>> the Federation (NFB's) publication and
>>> the >>Forum is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> Council (or ACB's) >>publication. I found a
>>> great article in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> July's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Forum entitled "Fifteen
>>> Ways to Maximize your
>>> ACB >>Membership," >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> giving >>>>>>>>>>>>>> fifteen tips on >>how to
>>> take advantage of all ACB (or
>>> any >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>organization, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> for that matter) has to offer. I >>think this
>>> could also apply to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Federation and to NABS or
>>> any other special-interest
>>> division, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> some good advice. To be >>accurate, I added "or
>>> NFB" in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> parentheses
>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some parts of the
>>> article. I have pasted the >>article
>>> below. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> thoughts on this? >>I promise I'm not trying to
>>> force the ACB down >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> throats; in fact, I'm a
>>> Federationist in nature, but >>want
>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> learn >>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>> both. Here is >>the
>>> article. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 15 WAYS
>>> TO MAXIMIZE YOUR >>ACB (or NFB)
>>> MEMBERSHIP >>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Kenneth Semien
>>> Sr. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All too often, people join
>>> organizations without >>taking >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> advantage of the opportunity to truly
>>> know >>intricate details of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> its >>>>>>>>>>>>>> purpose, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> mission, and operating practices. This can
>>> very >>well result in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>> lack >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> participation and could ultimately result in
>>> a >>decision to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> forfeit >>>>>>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> could have been the ideal vehicle to enhance
>>> your >>life, build >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> great >>>>>>>>>>>>>> relationships
>>> and >>effectively share personal skills
>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> abilities
>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>>> make an
>>> enormous difference. In >>an effort to
>>> encourage you to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> explore >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> meaningful efforts of ACB, I have included
>>> the >>tips listed below >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> assist >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you in
>>> being all you can be and help you join
>>> with >>others whose >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>>>> complement
>>> yours. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Be inquisitive and
>>> don't hesitate to
>>> ask >>questions. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Become
>>> familiar with the history, >>mission, and
>>> purpose by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reviewing it often
>>> enough to >>be able to repeat it to
>>> others. In >>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> someone may realize that this is the
>>> organization >>they have been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> looking >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> 3. Make a personal commitment to identify ways
>>> to >>get involved. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4. Find out
>>> who the officers are and >>become acquainted
>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> them and their roles
>>> and >>responsibilities, as well as
>>> members >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> observe >>>>>>>>>>>>>> actively participating
>>> in >>events and projects associated
>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> organization. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5. Make your
>>> skills >>and abilities known to leaders of
>>> your >>>>>>>>>>>>>> chapter, >>affiliate, or the
>>> president of our organization. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> 6. >>Make every effort to participate in
>>> chapter, state affiliate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>> national meetings, seminars, conferences
>>> and >>conventions. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7. Inquire
>>> about available committees >>you may be able to
>>> serve >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on to assist
>>> the >>organization in achieving its goals
>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> objectives. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> Seek >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to join committees that
>>> allow >>you to utilize your skills
>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> abilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the most effective and
>>> efficient >>manner. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8. If you
>>> have access to the Internet, sign >>up for
>>> up-to-date >>>>>>>>>>>>>> news and announcements
>>> from all >>levels of our
>>> organization. Ask >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>president >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>> member to tell you how to take >>advantage of
>>> this option. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 9. Listen to or
>>> read >>publications/newsletters distributed
>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> organization on all levels. This is one of the
>>> best >>ways to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> learn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>useful resources, access
>>> inspirational stories,
>>> scholarships, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> awards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> upcoming >>projects and events. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> 10. Identify special-interest >>groups that
>>> meet your personal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> needs. These
>>> groups >>provide you the opportunity to network
>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> others >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> sharing common interests, such as your prior
>>> or >>current >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> occupation, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> hobbies, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> health concerns and so
>>> much more. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 11. >>Obtain your own
>>> copy of the constitution and bylaws
>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> learn >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>> agreed-upon operating >>practices and procedures
>>> of our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> organization. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 12. Prepare for
>>> future involvement as an officer
>>> by >>becoming >>>>>>>>>>>>>> familiar with
>>> officer titles and duties. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> 13. Participate in conference calls to build
>>> your >>knowledge, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> such as
>>> membership focus calls, periodic >>Office Hours
>>> conference >>>>>>>>>>>>>> calls >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ACB president,
>>> committee calls, and >>special-interest
>>> group >>>>>>>>>>>>>> calls. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> 14. >>Explore the web sites of your chapter,
>>> state affiliate and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our
>>> national organization. You may
>>> locate >>information on the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> web
>>> site >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>> didn't think of inquiring
>>> about. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>15. Pay your annual
>>> dues faithfully and encourage others to
>>> do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>> more you know and the >>more you become
>>> involved, the more you >>>>>>>>>>>>>> will begin
>>> to >>know that you have joined a
>>> phenomenal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> organization >>that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> continuing to grow. Have
>>> a >>great ACB (or NFB)
>>> adventure! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris >>Nusbaum >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>
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