[Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane

[Ray Foret Jr]

A very slight electicle correction is exactly what I had in mind.  Not enough to really hurt; of course, just enough to put some motivation in to the person ahead of you to get moving.  Come to think of it, hey, that might just be  the thing to if a sighted person just up and grabs the tip of your cane as you start going somewhere.  Don't you just love when they do that?


Sincerely,
The Constantly Barefooted Ray
Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!

On Dec 16, 2012, at 11:09 AM, Michelle Medina <michellem86 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Lol. Yep!
> 
> A shock? Lol.
> 
> On 12/16/12, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
>> As a weapon?  New one for me.  Yeah, I suspect that what we'd need is a cane
>> with a battery in the handle; and, when you detect a person in line who just
>> will not move up with the line, just put the tip of your cane against them
>> and press the button in the handle.  Want to guess what  the unmoving
>> pkerson receives?
>> 
>> 
>> Sincerely,
>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
>> Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
>> 
>> On Dec 16, 2012, at 10:29 AM, Michelle Medina <michellem86 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Lol!! Yes, all good reasons for a cane. When I was still in short
>>> pants my mobility teacher would gather us around every few months and
>>> add another few reasons for use to the list he was making. Lol.
>>> These included, but were not limited to:
>>> Pogo stick, weapon, vehicle detector *when said vehicle wasn't moving
>>> or turnd on*, person detector *those who wouldn't move when they saw
>>> you coming so you could um, nudge, them along*, echo locator, a
>>> goof-off article when you were bored as heck and trying to stay awake
>>> during a mobility lesson where lots of talking was taking place and
>>> little movement was taking place, and there were tons more. 64 or 65
>>> in fact. My favorite was the pogo stick personally. Lol!!
>>> And of course, there was the very serious notion that the cane gave us
>>> our independence. I think at 26 that notion sits pretty well with me.
>>> I've made it through school that was woefully inadequate and now am
>>> moving on to schooling where people are HOPEFULLY, much more mature
>>> human beings!!!
>>> Oh, I forgot, night-stick or batton!! Lol. Guess those COULD go under
>>> the weapon category though?
>>> 
>>> On 12/16/12, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
>>>> Well, for me, the dog would not work.  Frankly, I am not an animal
>>>> person;
>>>> therefore, it would be dredfully unfair to the poor dog if I had one.
>>>> Now,
>>>> mind you, I am not trying to suggest I would deliberately be crewel to
>>>> the
>>>> dog; no way man;  however, I am suggesting that for me, as with some
>>>> others,
>>>> the staff is a much better option.
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
>>>> Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
>>>> 
>>>> On Dec 16, 2012, at 9:56 AM, "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Actually, although there *was* some anti-dog prejudice among some
>>>>> members
>>>>> of
>>>>> NFB, it was never NFB policy and, in fact, a great deal of such
>>>>> thinking
>>>>> came in reaction to over-the-top claims concerning the effectiveness of
>>>>> dogs
>>>>> and an equally virulent  prejudice by some dog-users against cane use
>>>>> and
>>>>> denigration of the effectiveness of cane use by those dog users. And
>>>>> have
>>>>> you ever noticed how many times such adamant refusal to consider NFB is
>>>>> based upon heresay and not upon actual experience?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Diane
>>>>> Graves
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 7:40 AM
>>>>> To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>>> 
>>>>> That's it! Thank you ray! I wanted to look it up, but couldn't think of
>>>>> the
>>>>> name for the life of me. Didn't know where to start.
>>>>> 
>>>>> There was apparently a time in the history of our organization (long
>>>>> before
>>>>> I joined) when members were giving each other grief about using a dog
>>>>> as
>>>>> opposed to using a cane. And I know, absolutely know, that that is one
>>>>> reason some blind people won't join us. I've had people tell me so, and
>>>>> nothing I could say would convince them that things had changed. They
>>>>> are
>>>>> convinced that it is still that way and they're sticking to that belief
>>>>> no
>>>>> matter what.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Diane Graves
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ray
>>>>> Foret
>>>>> Jr
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 10:31 AM
>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>>> 
>>>>> The title you are looking for is, "The Nature of independence".
>>>>> 
>>>>> HTH.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
>>>>> Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Dec 16, 2012, at 9:22 AM, Diane Graves <princess.di2007 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Guys,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Does anyone remember the article Dr. Jernigan wrote about this
>>>>>> dilemma? The name of the article is escaping me at this time, but I
>>>>>> remember that at the end, the gist of the writing was summarized by a
>>>>>> statement along the lines of "whether dog, or cane or human arm" the
>>>>>> choice belongs to the individual, and the overall objective is to get
>>>>>> where you need to go and do what you need to do.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In the NFB, we meet people at all levels. Some are newly blind, others
>>>>>> re blind people who have been sheltered all of their lives, others are
>>>>>> people that are so independent that they think they could climb a
>>>>>> skyscraper and survive. (A little over the top there, but you know
>>>>>> what I mean.)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Anyway, our job is not to judge them or dictate to them. Our job is to
>>>>>> meet them where they are and do our best to help them. Whether or not
>>>>>> they accept that help is up to them. The behavior that you are
>>>>>> describing is one reason that many blind people don't want anything to
>>>>>> do with the federation.  It sounds to me like the members are refusing
>>>>>> their friendship on the basis of his decision. Do you really think
>>>>>> that is
>>>>> going to help him?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If one is so uncaring that they would call someone a cab and send them
>>>>>> home at their expense, then why in the world would they have to take
>>>>>> anyone to the emergency room? Call an ambulance.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> With conditional friendship like that, I'm not sure why anyone would
>>>>>> want to visit these members or be a part of the chapter anyway. He
>>>>>> could, incidentally refuse to get into the cab and ride home at his
>>>>> expense.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> For the record, I think it is a foolish decision myself, but I
>>>>>> wouldn't refuse friendship on that basis, any more than I would refuse
>>>>>> friendship on the basis of whether someone was too thin or too fat, or
>>>>>> of another culture or any number of other characteristics. When you
>>>>>> think about it, maybe actually being escorted/lead by a few blind
>>>>>> people would teach this guy that he could, in  fact, learn to travel
>>>>> himself.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Finally, I would just point out that, while there are a good many
>>>>>> sighted people who have a healthy perspective about blindness, there
>>>>>> are some sighted people who have some ridiculous ideas. It may very
>>>>>> well be true that some crazy neurologist did tell him that a cane
>>>>>> might aggravate his seizure disorder. You just don't know.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Diane Graves
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: 	 [	:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steven
>>>>>> Johnson
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 8:37 AM
>>>>>> To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>> Although I am not an attorney, I am well-versed in the ADA, and with
>>>>>> all due respect, I do not believe the ADA has any application here as
>>>>>> the concept of direct threat, applies to Title I, covering provisions
>>>>>> of employment; not Titles II or III.  It's a choice by this individual
>>>>>> to go out into public without the use of an aide such as a cane, or
>>>>>> guide, but their choice is sighted guide.  They are not posing a risk
>>>>>> to anyone but themselves, but I can assure you that if this person was
>>>>>> employed, the application might be viable.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter
>>>>>> Donahue
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 6:53 AM
>>>>>> To: nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Cc: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List; Daniel Carr; NFBnet Blind Law
>>>>>> Mailing List; NFB of Florida Internet Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Good morning everyone,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> An who belonged to our Florida Affiliate recently moved to San
>>>>>> Antonio and wishes to join our chapter. This person is totally blind
>>>>>> and absolutely refuses to use a cane. They recently showed up at our
>>>>>> Christmas party and had to be helped in to and out of the meeting room
>>>>>> we
>>>>> used for this event.
>>>>>> Members were surprised when they discovered that this person showed up
>>>>>> without their cane. When later questioned about this the person began
>>>>>> giving us all manner of excuse. They told us that their neurologist
>>>>>> and past O&M instructors recommended against the use of the cane due
>>>>>> to this person's having seizures. This individual attended Perkins
>>>>>> along with a number of other schools for the blind. I know for a fact
>>>>>> that at least while at Perkins this individual lived in a cottage with
>>>>>> another person who also has seizures and is one of the best travelers
>>>>>> I know. Like this person, the confident cane user is totally blind and
>>>>>> is someone I came to know well. The individual in question undoubtedly
>>>>>> met many other successful blind cane users with other disabilities. I
>>>>>> myself have seizures and sleep apnea and use both a cane and a dog
>>>>> depending on the situation.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The individual refusing to use their cane has all ready been told
>>>>>> by several members in the area that if they wish to visit them the/she
>>>>>> must bring their cane and use it to get from their transportation in
>>>>>> to our residence and if necessary use the cane during their visit.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> When attempting to reason with the person in question members have
>>>>>> been accused of "Bullying" them and have heard all excuses in the book
>>>>>> why he/she cannot use a cane proficiently. The individual has been
>>>>>> told that neurologists are not qualified to determine whether or not
>>>>>> the use of a travel aid can effect one's seizures. The evidence to the
>>>>>> contrary is over whelmingly against this horsepuckey. As we also know
>>>>>> not all blindness professionals have true belief in the capabilities
>>>>>> of the blind. This individual obviously had a few such persons in
>>>>>> their life to sell them short on their ability to travel independently
>>>>>> and on the importance of using a cane or a dog. The individual has
>>>>>> been told that if they show up at any of our homes without their cane
>>>>>> we will call them a cab and promptly send them home at their expense
>>>>>> something they can avoid simply by listening to reason and using their
>>>>>> cane whenever traveling. We're busy people. The last thing we need to
>>>>>> have to do is take someone to the emergency room when we know that an
>>>>>> individual has complete disregard for their personal safety and as
>>>>>> negligent. It seems like direct threat provisions of the ADA may apply
>>>>>> in this situation where public venues are concerned. The lawyers can
>>>>>> help
>>>>> us wit this one.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> We want to help this person achieve a higher degree of independence
>>>>>> and be an active member of our chapter. While we won't prohibit them
>>>>>> from joining us they'll be a more effective contributor to the cause
>>>>>> if they would embrace the alternative techniques of blindness and use
>>>>>> them regularly. Thanks for your help and suggestions.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper."
>>>>>> Isaiah 54:17
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "While for our princes they prepare
>>>>>> In caverns deep a burning snare,
>>>>>> He shot from heaven a piercing ray,
>>>>>> And the dark treachery brought to day."
>>>>>> Anonymous
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
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