[Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane

Sun Dec 16 17:55:28 UTC 2012

Yeah, Barefooted, it's an automatic, leash for all blinks who 
happened to be carrying a white stick!
CarAt 09:18 AM 12/16/2012, you wrote:
>A very slight electicle correction is exactly what I had in 
>mind.  Not enough to really hurt; of course, just enough to put some 
>motivation in to the person ahead of you to get moving.  Come to 
>think of it, hey, that might just be  the thing to if a sighted 
>person just up and grabs the tip of your cane as you start going 
>somewhere.  Don't you just love when they do that?
>
>
>Sincerely,
>The Constantly Barefooted Ray
>Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
>
>On Dec 16, 2012, at 11:09 AM, Michelle Medina <michellem86 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Lol. Yep!
> >
> > A shock? Lol.
> >
> > On 12/16/12, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
> >> As a weapon?  New one for me.  Yeah, I suspect that what we'd 
> need is a cane
> >> with a battery in the handle; and, when you detect a person in 
> line who just
> >> will not move up with the line, just put the tip of your cane against them
> >> and press the button in the handle.  Want to guess what  the unmoving
> >> pkerson receives?
> >>
> >>
> >> Sincerely,
> >> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
> >> Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
> >>
> >> On Dec 16, 2012, at 10:29 AM, Michelle Medina <michellem86 at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Lol!! Yes, all good reasons for a cane. When I was still in short
> >>> pants my mobility teacher would gather us around every few months and
> >>> add another few reasons for use to the list he was making. Lol.
> >>> These included, but were not limited to:
> >>> Pogo stick, weapon, vehicle detector *when said vehicle wasn't moving
> >>> or turnd on*, person detector *those who wouldn't move when they saw
> >>> you coming so you could um, nudge, them along*, echo locator, a
> >>> goof-off article when you were bored as heck and trying to stay awake
> >>> during a mobility lesson where lots of talking was taking place and
> >>> little movement was taking place, and there were tons more. 64 or 65
> >>> in fact. My favorite was the pogo stick personally. Lol!!
> >>> And of course, there was the very serious notion that the cane gave us
> >>> our independence. I think at 26 that notion sits pretty well with me.
> >>> I've made it through school that was woefully inadequate and now am
> >>> moving on to schooling where people are HOPEFULLY, much more mature
> >>> human beings!!!
> >>> Oh, I forgot, night-stick or batton!! Lol. Guess those COULD go under
> >>> the weapon category though?
> >>>
> >>> On 12/16/12, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
> >>>> Well, for me, the dog would not work.  Frankly, I am not an animal
> >>>> person;
> >>>> therefore, it would be dredfully unfair to the poor dog if I had one.
> >>>> Now,
> >>>> mind you, I am not trying to suggest I would deliberately be crewel to
> >>>> the
> >>>> dog; no way man;  however, I am suggesting that for me, as with some
> >>>> others,
> >>>> the staff is a much better option.
> >>>> Sincerely,
> >>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
> >>>> Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
> >>>>
> >>>> On Dec 16, 2012, at 9:56 AM, "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Actually, although there *was* some anti-dog prejudice among some
> >>>>> members
> >>>>> of
> >>>>> NFB, it was never NFB policy and, in fact, a great deal of such
> >>>>> thinking
> >>>>> came in reaction to over-the-top claims concerning the effectiveness of
> >>>>> dogs
> >>>>> and an equally virulent  prejudice by some dog-users against cane use
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> denigration of the effectiveness of cane use by those dog users. And
> >>>>> have
> >>>>> you ever noticed how many times such adamant refusal to consider NFB is
> >>>>> based upon heresay and not upon actual experience?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Mike Freeman
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Diane
> >>>>> Graves
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 7:40 AM
> >>>>> To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That's it! Thank you ray! I wanted to look it up, but couldn't think of
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> name for the life of me. Didn't know where to start.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There was apparently a time in the history of our organization (long
> >>>>> before
> >>>>> I joined) when members were giving each other grief about using a dog
> >>>>> as
> >>>>> opposed to using a cane. And I know, absolutely know, that that is one
> >>>>> reason some blind people won't join us. I've had people tell me so, and
> >>>>> nothing I could say would convince them that things had changed. They
> >>>>> are
> >>>>> convinced that it is still that way and they're sticking to that belief
> >>>>> no
> >>>>> matter what.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Diane Graves
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ray
> >>>>> Foret
> >>>>> Jr
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 10:31 AM
> >>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The title you are looking for is, "The Nature of independence".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> HTH.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sincerely,
> >>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
> >>>>> Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Dec 16, 2012, at 9:22 AM, Diane Graves <princess.di2007 at gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi Guys,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Does anyone remember the article Dr. Jernigan wrote about this
> >>>>>> dilemma? The name of the article is escaping me at this time, but I
> >>>>>> remember that at the end, the gist of the writing was summarized by a
> >>>>>> statement along the lines of "whether dog, or cane or human arm" the
> >>>>>> choice belongs to the individual, and the overall objective is to get
> >>>>>> where you need to go and do what you need to do.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In the NFB, we meet people at all levels. Some are newly blind, others
> >>>>>> re blind people who have been sheltered all of their lives, others are
> >>>>>> people that are so independent that they think they could climb a
> >>>>>> skyscraper and survive. (A little over the top there, but you know
> >>>>>> what I mean.)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Anyway, our job is not to judge them or dictate to them. Our job is to
> >>>>>> meet them where they are and do our best to help them. Whether or not
> >>>>>> they accept that help is up to them. The behavior that you are
> >>>>>> describing is one reason that many blind people don't want anything to
> >>>>>> do with the federation.  It sounds to me like the members are refusing
> >>>>>> their friendship on the basis of his decision. Do you really think
> >>>>>> that is
> >>>>> going to help him?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If one is so uncaring that they would call someone a cab and send them
> >>>>>> home at their expense, then why in the world would they have to take
> >>>>>> anyone to the emergency room? Call an ambulance.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> With conditional friendship like that, I'm not sure why anyone would
> >>>>>> want to visit these members or be a part of the chapter anyway. He
> >>>>>> could, incidentally refuse to get into the cab and ride home at his
> >>>>> expense.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> For the record, I think it is a foolish decision myself, but I
> >>>>>> wouldn't refuse friendship on that basis, any more than I would refuse
> >>>>>> friendship on the basis of whether someone was too thin or too fat, or
> >>>>>> of another culture or any number of other characteristics. When you
> >>>>>> think about it, maybe actually being escorted/lead by a few blind
> >>>>>> people would teach this guy that he could, in  fact, learn to travel
> >>>>> himself.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Finally, I would just point out that, while there are a good many
> >>>>>> sighted people who have a healthy perspective about blindness, there
> >>>>>> are some sighted people who have some ridiculous ideas. It may very
> >>>>>> well be true that some crazy neurologist did tell him that a cane
> >>>>>> might aggravate his seizure disorder. You just don't know.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Diane Graves
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From:    [       :blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steven
> >>>>>> Johnson
> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 8:37 AM
> >>>>>> To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Peter,
> >>>>>> Although I am not an attorney, I am well-versed in the ADA, and with
> >>>>>> all due respect, I do not believe the ADA has any application here as
> >>>>>> the concept of direct threat, applies to Title I, covering provisions
> >>>>>> of employment; not Titles II or III.  It's a choice by this individual
> >>>>>> to go out into public without the use of an aide such as a cane, or
> >>>>>> guide, but their choice is sighted guide.  They are not posing a risk
> >>>>>> to anyone but themselves, but I can assure you that if this person was
> >>>>>> employed, the application might be viable.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Steve
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter
> >>>>>> Donahue
> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 6:53 AM
> >>>>>> To: nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>> Cc: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List; Daniel Carr; NFBnet Blind Law
> >>>>>> Mailing List; NFB of Florida Internet Mailing List
> >>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Good morning everyone,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> An who belonged to our Florida Affiliate recently moved to San
> >>>>>> Antonio and wishes to join our chapter. This person is totally blind
> >>>>>> and absolutely refuses to use a cane. They recently showed up at our
> >>>>>> Christmas party and had to be helped in to and out of the meeting room
> >>>>>> we
> >>>>> used for this event.
> >>>>>> Members were surprised when they discovered that this person showed up
> >>>>>> without their cane. When later questioned about this the person began
> >>>>>> giving us all manner of excuse. They told us that their neurologist
> >>>>>> and past O&M instructors recommended against the use of the cane due
> >>>>>> to this person's having seizures. This individual attended Perkins
> >>>>>> along with a number of other schools for the blind. I know for a fact
> >>>>>> that at least while at Perkins this individual lived in a cottage with
> >>>>>> another person who also has seizures and is one of the best travelers
> >>>>>> I know. Like this person, the confident cane user is totally blind and
> >>>>>> is someone I came to know well. The individual in question undoubtedly
> >>>>>> met many other successful blind cane users with other disabilities. I
> >>>>>> myself have seizures and sleep apnea and use both a cane and a dog
> >>>>> depending on the situation.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The individual refusing to use their cane has all ready been told
> >>>>>> by several members in the area that if they wish to visit them the/she
> >>>>>> must bring their cane and use it to get from their transportation in
> >>>>>> to our residence and if necessary use the cane during their visit.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> When attempting to reason with the person in question members have
> >>>>>> been accused of "Bullying" them and have heard all excuses in the book
> >>>>>> why he/she cannot use a cane proficiently. The individual has been
> >>>>>> told that neurologists are not qualified to determine whether or not
> >>>>>> the use of a travel aid can effect one's seizures. The evidence to the
> >>>>>> contrary is over whelmingly against this horsepuckey. As we also know
> >>>>>> not all blindness professionals have true belief in the capabilities
> >>>>>> of the blind. This individual obviously had a few such persons in
> >>>>>> their life to sell them short on their ability to travel independently
> >>>>>> and on the importance of using a cane or a dog. The individual has
> >>>>>> been told that if they show up at any of our homes without their cane
> >>>>>> we will call them a cab and promptly send them home at their expense
> >>>>>> something they can avoid simply by listening to reason and using their
> >>>>>> cane whenever traveling. We're busy people. The last thing we need to
> >>>>>> have to do is take someone to the emergency room when we know that an
> >>>>>> individual has complete disregard for their personal safety and as
> >>>>>> negligent. It seems like direct threat provisions of the ADA may apply
> >>>>>> in this situation where public venues are concerned. The lawyers can
> >>>>>> help
> >>>>> us wit this one.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We want to help this person achieve a higher degree of independence
> >>>>>> and be an active member of our chapter. While we won't prohibit them
> >>>>>> from joining us they'll be a more effective contributor to the cause
> >>>>>> if they would embrace the alternative techniques of blindness and use
> >>>>>> them regularly. Thanks for your help and suggestions.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Peter Donahue
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper."
> >>>>>> Isaiah 54:17
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "While for our princes they prepare
> >>>>>> In caverns deep a burning snare,
> >>>>>> He shot from heaven a piercing ray,
> >>>>>> And the dark treachery brought to day."
> >>>>>> Anonymous
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
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> >>>>>> t
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
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> >>>>
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> >>>
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