[Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane

Sun Dec 16 18:18:32 UTC 2012

I always thought a "taser cane" would work wonders to speed up lines (as in
lines to get into restaurants, check-in or check-out lines, etc.).

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ray Foret
Jr
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 9:04 AM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane

As a weapon?  New one for me.  Yeah, I suspect that what we'd need is a cane
with a battery in the handle; and, when you detect a person in line who just
will not move up with the line, just put the tip of your cane against them
and press the button in the handle.  Want to guess what  the unmoving
pkerson receives?

Sincerely,
The Constantly Barefooted Ray
Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!

On Dec 16, 2012, at 10:29 AM, Michelle Medina <michellem86 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Lol!! Yes, all good reasons for a cane. When I was still in short
> pants my mobility teacher would gather us around every few months and
> add another few reasons for use to the list he was making. Lol.
> These included, but were not limited to:
> Pogo stick, weapon, vehicle detector *when said vehicle wasn't moving
> or turnd on*, person detector *those who wouldn't move when they saw
> you coming so you could um, nudge, them along*, echo locator, a
> goof-off article when you were bored as heck and trying to stay awake
> during a mobility lesson where lots of talking was taking place and
> little movement was taking place, and there were tons more. 64 or 65
> in fact. My favorite was the pogo stick personally. Lol!!
> And of course, there was the very serious notion that the cane gave us
> our independence. I think at 26 that notion sits pretty well with me.
> I've made it through school that was woefully inadequate and now am
> moving on to schooling where people are HOPEFULLY, much more mature
> human beings!!!
> Oh, I forgot, night-stick or batton!! Lol. Guess those COULD go under
> the weapon category though?
> 
> On 12/16/12, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
>> Well, for me, the dog would not work.  Frankly, I am not an animal
person;
>> therefore, it would be dredfully unfair to the poor dog if I had one.
Now,
>> mind you, I am not trying to suggest I would deliberately be crewel to
the
>> dog; no way man;  however, I am suggesting that for me, as with some
others,
>> the staff is a much better option.
>> Sincerely,
>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
>> Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
>> 
>> On Dec 16, 2012, at 9:56 AM, "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Actually, although there *was* some anti-dog prejudice among some
members
>>> of
>>> NFB, it was never NFB policy and, in fact, a great deal of such thinking
>>> came in reaction to over-the-top claims concerning the effectiveness of
>>> dogs
>>> and an equally virulent  prejudice by some dog-users against cane use
and
>>> denigration of the effectiveness of cane use by those dog users. And
have
>>> you ever noticed how many times such adamant refusal to consider NFB is
>>> based upon heresay and not upon actual experience?
>>> 
>>> Mike Freeman
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Diane
>>> Graves
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 7:40 AM
>>> To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>> 
>>> That's it! Thank you ray! I wanted to look it up, but couldn't think of
>>> the
>>> name for the life of me. Didn't know where to start.
>>> 
>>> There was apparently a time in the history of our organization (long
>>> before
>>> I joined) when members were giving each other grief about using a dog as
>>> opposed to using a cane. And I know, absolutely know, that that is one
>>> reason some blind people won't join us. I've had people tell me so, and
>>> nothing I could say would convince them that things had changed. They
are
>>> convinced that it is still that way and they're sticking to that belief
>>> no
>>> matter what.
>>> 
>>> Diane Graves
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ray
>>> Foret
>>> Jr
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 10:31 AM
>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>> 
>>> The title you are looking for is, "The Nature of independence".
>>> 
>>> HTH.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sincerely,
>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
>>> Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
>>> 
>>> On Dec 16, 2012, at 9:22 AM, Diane Graves <princess.di2007 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Guys,
>>>> 
>>>> Does anyone remember the article Dr. Jernigan wrote about this
>>>> dilemma? The name of the article is escaping me at this time, but I
>>>> remember that at the end, the gist of the writing was summarized by a
>>>> statement along the lines of "whether dog, or cane or human arm" the
>>>> choice belongs to the individual, and the overall objective is to get
>>>> where you need to go and do what you need to do.
>>>> 
>>>> In the NFB, we meet people at all levels. Some are newly blind, others
>>>> re blind people who have been sheltered all of their lives, others are
>>>> people that are so independent that they think they could climb a
>>>> skyscraper and survive. (A little over the top there, but you know
>>>> what I mean.)
>>>> 
>>>> Anyway, our job is not to judge them or dictate to them. Our job is to
>>>> meet them where they are and do our best to help them. Whether or not
>>>> they accept that help is up to them. The behavior that you are
>>>> describing is one reason that many blind people don't want anything to
>>>> do with the federation.  It sounds to me like the members are refusing
>>>> their friendship on the basis of his decision. Do you really think
>>>> that is
>>> going to help him?
>>>> 
>>>> If one is so uncaring that they would call someone a cab and send them
>>>> home at their expense, then why in the world would they have to take
>>>> anyone to the emergency room? Call an ambulance.
>>>> 
>>>> With conditional friendship like that, I'm not sure why anyone would
>>>> want to visit these members or be a part of the chapter anyway. He
>>>> could, incidentally refuse to get into the cab and ride home at his
>>> expense.
>>>> 
>>>> For the record, I think it is a foolish decision myself, but I
>>>> wouldn't refuse friendship on that basis, any more than I would refuse
>>>> friendship on the basis of whether someone was too thin or too fat, or
>>>> of another culture or any number of other characteristics. When you
>>>> think about it, maybe actually being escorted/lead by a few blind
>>>> people would teach this guy that he could, in  fact, learn to travel
>>> himself.
>>>> 
>>>> Finally, I would just point out that, while there are a good many
>>>> sighted people who have a healthy perspective about blindness, there
>>>> are some sighted people who have some ridiculous ideas. It may very
>>>> well be true that some crazy neurologist did tell him that a cane
>>>> might aggravate his seizure disorder. You just don't know.
>>>> 
>>>> Diane Graves
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: 	 [	:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steven
>>>> Johnson
>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 8:37 AM
>>>> To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>> 
>>>> Peter,
>>>> Although I am not an attorney, I am well-versed in the ADA, and with
>>>> all due respect, I do not believe the ADA has any application here as
>>>> the concept of direct threat, applies to Title I, covering provisions
>>>> of employment; not Titles II or III.  It's a choice by this individual
>>>> to go out into public without the use of an aide such as a cane, or
>>>> guide, but their choice is sighted guide.  They are not posing a risk
>>>> to anyone but themselves, but I can assure you that if this person was
>>>> employed, the application might be viable.
>>>> 
>>>> Steve
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter
>>>> Donahue
>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 6:53 AM
>>>> To: nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> Cc: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List; Daniel Carr; NFBnet Blind Law
>>>> Mailing List; NFB of Florida Internet Mailing List
>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>> 
>>>> Good morning everyone,
>>>> 
>>>>  An who belonged to our Florida Affiliate recently moved to San
>>>> Antonio and wishes to join our chapter. This person is totally blind
>>>> and absolutely refuses to use a cane. They recently showed up at our
>>>> Christmas party and had to be helped in to and out of the meeting room
>>>> we
>>> used for this event.
>>>> Members were surprised when they discovered that this person showed up
>>>> without their cane. When later questioned about this the person began
>>>> giving us all manner of excuse. They told us that their neurologist
>>>> and past O&M instructors recommended against the use of the cane due
>>>> to this person's having seizures. This individual attended Perkins
>>>> along with a number of other schools for the blind. I know for a fact
>>>> that at least while at Perkins this individual lived in a cottage with
>>>> another person who also has seizures and is one of the best travelers
>>>> I know. Like this person, the confident cane user is totally blind and
>>>> is someone I came to know well. The individual in question undoubtedly
>>>> met many other successful blind cane users with other disabilities. I
>>>> myself have seizures and sleep apnea and use both a cane and a dog
>>> depending on the situation.
>>>> 
>>>>  The individual refusing to use their cane has all ready been told
>>>> by several members in the area that if they wish to visit them the/she
>>>> must bring their cane and use it to get from their transportation in
>>>> to our residence and if necessary use the cane during their visit.
>>>> 
>>>>  When attempting to reason with the person in question members have
>>>> been accused of "Bullying" them and have heard all excuses in the book
>>>> why he/she cannot use a cane proficiently. The individual has been
>>>> told that neurologists are not qualified to determine whether or not
>>>> the use of a travel aid can effect one's seizures. The evidence to the
>>>> contrary is over whelmingly against this horsepuckey. As we also know
>>>> not all blindness professionals have true belief in the capabilities
>>>> of the blind. This individual obviously had a few such persons in
>>>> their life to sell them short on their ability to travel independently
>>>> and on the importance of using a cane or a dog. The individual has
>>>> been told that if they show up at any of our homes without their cane
>>>> we will call them a cab and promptly send them home at their expense
>>>> something they can avoid simply by listening to reason and using their
>>>> cane whenever traveling. We're busy people. The last thing we need to
>>>> have to do is take someone to the emergency room when we know that an
>>>> individual has complete disregard for their personal safety and as
>>>> negligent. It seems like direct threat provisions of the ADA may apply
>>>> in this situation where public venues are concerned. The lawyers can
>>>> help
>>> us wit this one.
>>>> 
>>>>  We want to help this person achieve a higher degree of independence
>>>> and be an active member of our chapter. While we won't prohibit them
>>>> from joining us they'll be a more effective contributor to the cause
>>>> if they would embrace the alternative techniques of blindness and use
>>>> them regularly. Thanks for your help and suggestions.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>> 
>>>> "No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper."
>>>> Isaiah 54:17
>>>> 
>>>> "While for our princes they prepare
>>>> In caverns deep a burning snare,
>>>> He shot from heaven a piercing ray,
>>>> And the dark treachery brought to day."
>>>> Anonymous
>>>> 
>>>> 
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> 
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