[Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane

Mon Dec 17 08:10:54 UTC 2012

Good evening, Dianne,

When ol' Sighty, as we term them, picks up my cane, attempting to use 
ie like a leash, I just let go, leaving them standing there with a 
naked, white stick in their hand.
Carly mihalakisthe message.you wrote:
>Years and years ago, I had a sighted person think they were going to lead me
>by my cane. He picked up the end of my cane and was going to use it like a
>leash. I can't begin to understand the mind of the sighted sometimes.
>
>Diane
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gloria
>Whipple
>Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 1:45 PM
>To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>
>When I was going to college, that is what happened to me.
>
>I was on my way to my next class when the person who I was walking with
>grabbed my cane. Very politely I told her that I didn't appreciate it and it
>made me feel nervous.
>
>Gloria Whipple
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ray Foret
>Jr
>Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 09:19
>To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>
>A very slight electicle correction is exactly what I had in mind.  Not
>enough to really hurt; of course, just enough to put some motivation in to
>the person ahead of you to get moving.  Come to think of it, hey, that might
>just be  the thing to if a sighted person just up and grabs the tip of your
>cane as you start going somewhere.  Don't you just love when they do that?
>
>
>Sincerely,
>The Constantly Barefooted Ray
>Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
>
>On Dec 16, 2012, at 11:09 AM, Michelle Medina <michellem86 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Lol. Yep!
> >
> > A shock? Lol.
> >
> > On 12/16/12, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
> >> As a weapon?  New one for me.  Yeah, I suspect that what we'd need is
> >> a
>cane
> >> with a battery in the handle; and, when you detect a person in line
> >> who
>just
> >> will not move up with the line, just put the tip of your cane against
>them
> >> and press the button in the handle.  Want to guess what  the unmoving
> >> pkerson receives?
> >>
> >>
> >> Sincerely,
> >> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
> >> Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
> >>
> >> On Dec 16, 2012, at 10:29 AM, Michelle Medina <michellem86 at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Lol!! Yes, all good reasons for a cane. When I was still in short
> >>> pants my mobility teacher would gather us around every few months
> >>> and add another few reasons for use to the list he was making. Lol.
> >>> These included, but were not limited to:
> >>> Pogo stick, weapon, vehicle detector *when said vehicle wasn't
> >>> moving or turnd on*, person detector *those who wouldn't move when
> >>> they saw you coming so you could um, nudge, them along*, echo
> >>> locator, a goof-off article when you were bored as heck and trying
> >>> to stay awake during a mobility lesson where lots of talking was
> >>> taking place and little movement was taking place, and there were
> >>> tons more. 64 or 65 in fact. My favorite was the pogo stick personally.
>Lol!!
> >>> And of course, there was the very serious notion that the cane gave
> >>> us our independence. I think at 26 that notion sits pretty well with me.
> >>> I've made it through school that was woefully inadequate and now am
> >>> moving on to schooling where people are HOPEFULLY, much more mature
> >>> human beings!!!
> >>> Oh, I forgot, night-stick or batton!! Lol. Guess those COULD go
> >>> under the weapon category though?
> >>>
> >>> On 12/16/12, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
> >>>> Well, for me, the dog would not work.  Frankly, I am not an animal
> >>>> person; therefore, it would be dredfully unfair to the poor dog if
> >>>> I had one.
> >>>> Now,
> >>>> mind you, I am not trying to suggest I would deliberately be crewel
> >>>> to the dog; no way man;  however, I am suggesting that for me, as
> >>>> with some others, the staff is a much better option.
> >>>> Sincerely,
> >>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
> >>>> Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
> >>>>
> >>>> On Dec 16, 2012, at 9:56 AM, "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Actually, although there *was* some anti-dog prejudice among some
> >>>>> members of NFB, it was never NFB policy and, in fact, a great deal
> >>>>> of such thinking came in reaction to over-the-top claims
> >>>>> concerning the effectiveness
>of
> >>>>> dogs
> >>>>> and an equally virulent  prejudice by some dog-users against cane
> >>>>> use and denigration of the effectiveness of cane use by those dog
> >>>>> users. And have you ever noticed how many times such adamant
> >>>>> refusal to consider NFB
>is
> >>>>> based upon heresay and not upon actual experience?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Mike Freeman
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> >>>>> Diane Graves
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 7:40 AM
> >>>>> To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That's it! Thank you ray! I wanted to look it up, but couldn't
> >>>>> think
>of
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> name for the life of me. Didn't know where to start.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There was apparently a time in the history of our organization
> >>>>> (long before I joined) when members were giving each other grief
> >>>>> about using a dog as opposed to using a cane. And I know,
> >>>>> absolutely know, that that is one reason some blind people won't
> >>>>> join us. I've had people tell me so,
>and
> >>>>> nothing I could say would convince them that things had changed.
> >>>>> They are convinced that it is still that way and they're sticking
> >>>>> to that
>belief
> >>>>> no
> >>>>> matter what.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Diane Graves
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> >>>>> Ray Foret Jr
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 10:31 AM
> >>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The title you are looking for is, "The Nature of independence".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> HTH.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sincerely,
> >>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
> >>>>> Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Dec 16, 2012, at 9:22 AM, Diane Graves
> >>>>> <princess.di2007 at gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi Guys,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Does anyone remember the article Dr. Jernigan wrote about this
> >>>>>> dilemma? The name of the article is escaping me at this time, but
> >>>>>> I remember that at the end, the gist of the writing was
> >>>>>> summarized by a statement along the lines of "whether dog, or
> >>>>>> cane or human arm" the choice belongs to the individual, and the
> >>>>>> overall objective is to get where you need to go and do what you need
>to do.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In the NFB, we meet people at all levels. Some are newly blind,
>others
> >>>>>> re blind people who have been sheltered all of their lives,
> >>>>>> others
>are
> >>>>>> people that are so independent that they think they could climb a
> >>>>>> skyscraper and survive. (A little over the top there, but you
> >>>>>> know what I mean.)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Anyway, our job is not to judge them or dictate to them. Our job
> >>>>>> is
>to
> >>>>>> meet them where they are and do our best to help them. Whether or
> >>>>>> not they accept that help is up to them. The behavior that you
> >>>>>> are describing is one reason that many blind people don't want
> >>>>>> anything
>to
> >>>>>> do with the federation.  It sounds to me like the members are
>refusing
> >>>>>> their friendship on the basis of his decision. Do you really
> >>>>>> think that is
> >>>>> going to help him?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If one is so uncaring that they would call someone a cab and send
>them
> >>>>>> home at their expense, then why in the world would they have to
> >>>>>> take anyone to the emergency room? Call an ambulance.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> With conditional friendship like that, I'm not sure why anyone
> >>>>>> would want to visit these members or be a part of the chapter
> >>>>>> anyway. He could, incidentally refuse to get into the cab and
> >>>>>> ride home at his
> >>>>> expense.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> For the record, I think it is a foolish decision myself, but I
> >>>>>> wouldn't refuse friendship on that basis, any more than I would
>refuse
> >>>>>> friendship on the basis of whether someone was too thin or too
> >>>>>> fat,
>or
> >>>>>> of another culture or any number of other characteristics. When
> >>>>>> you think about it, maybe actually being escorted/lead by a few
> >>>>>> blind people would teach this guy that he could, in  fact, learn
> >>>>>> to travel
> >>>>> himself.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Finally, I would just point out that, while there are a good many
> >>>>>> sighted people who have a healthy perspective about blindness,
> >>>>>> there are some sighted people who have some ridiculous ideas. It
> >>>>>> may very well be true that some crazy neurologist did tell him
> >>>>>> that a cane might aggravate his seizure disorder. You just don't
>know.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Diane Graves
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From:    [       :blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steven
> >>>>>> Johnson
> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 8:37 AM
> >>>>>> To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Peter,
> >>>>>> Although I am not an attorney, I am well-versed in the ADA, and
> >>>>>> with all due respect, I do not believe the ADA has any
> >>>>>> application here as the concept of direct threat, applies to
> >>>>>> Title I, covering provisions of employment; not Titles II or III.
> >>>>>> It's a choice by this
>individual
> >>>>>> to go out into public without the use of an aide such as a cane,
> >>>>>> or guide, but their choice is sighted guide.  They are not posing
> >>>>>> a risk to anyone but themselves, but I can assure you that if
> >>>>>> this person
>was
> >>>>>> employed, the application might be viable.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Steve
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>Peter
> >>>>>> Donahue
> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 6:53 AM
> >>>>>> To: nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>> Cc: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List; Daniel Carr; NFBnet Blind Law
> >>>>>> Mailing List; NFB of Florida Internet Mailing List
> >>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Good morning everyone,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> An who belonged to our Florida Affiliate recently moved to San
> >>>>>> Antonio and wishes to join our chapter. This person is totally
> >>>>>> blind and absolutely refuses to use a cane. They recently showed
> >>>>>> up at our Christmas party and had to be helped in to and out of
> >>>>>> the meeting
>room
> >>>>>> we
> >>>>> used for this event.
> >>>>>> Members were surprised when they discovered that this person
> >>>>>> showed
>up
> >>>>>> without their cane. When later questioned about this the person
> >>>>>> began giving us all manner of excuse. They told us that their
> >>>>>> neurologist and past O&M instructors recommended against the use
> >>>>>> of the cane due to this person's having seizures. This individual
> >>>>>> attended Perkins along with a number of other schools for the
> >>>>>> blind. I know for a fact that at least while at Perkins this
> >>>>>> individual lived in a cottage
>with
> >>>>>> another person who also has seizures and is one of the best
> >>>>>> travelers I know. Like this person, the confident cane user is
> >>>>>> totally blind
>and
> >>>>>> is someone I came to know well. The individual in question
>undoubtedly
> >>>>>> met many other successful blind cane users with other
> >>>>>> disabilities. I myself have seizures and sleep apnea and use both
> >>>>>> a cane and a dog
> >>>>> depending on the situation.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The individual refusing to use their cane has all ready been told
> >>>>>> by several members in the area that if they wish to visit them
>the/she
> >>>>>> must bring their cane and use it to get from their transportation
> >>>>>> in to our residence and if necessary use the cane during their visit.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> When attempting to reason with the person in question members
> >>>>>> have been accused of "Bullying" them and have heard all excuses
> >>>>>> in the
>book
> >>>>>> why he/she cannot use a cane proficiently. The individual has
> >>>>>> been told that neurologists are not qualified to determine
> >>>>>> whether or not the use of a travel aid can effect one's seizures.
> >>>>>> The evidence to
>the
> >>>>>> contrary is over whelmingly against this horsepuckey. As we also
> >>>>>> know not all blindness professionals have true belief in the
> >>>>>> capabilities of the blind. This individual obviously had a few
> >>>>>> such persons in their life to sell them short on their ability to
> >>>>>> travel
>independently
> >>>>>> and on the importance of using a cane or a dog. The individual
> >>>>>> has been told that if they show up at any of our homes without
> >>>>>> their cane we will call them a cab and promptly send them home at
> >>>>>> their expense something they can avoid simply by listening to
> >>>>>> reason and using
>their
> >>>>>> cane whenever traveling. We're busy people. The last thing we
> >>>>>> need to have to do is take someone to the emergency room when we
> >>>>>> know that an individual has complete disregard for their personal
> >>>>>> safety and as negligent. It seems like direct threat provisions
> >>>>>> of the ADA may
>apply
> >>>>>> in this situation where public venues are concerned. The lawyers
> >>>>>> can help
> >>>>> us wit this one.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We want to help this person achieve a higher degree of
> >>>>>> independence and be an active member of our chapter. While we
> >>>>>> won't prohibit them from joining us they'll be a more effective
> >>>>>> contributor to the cause if they would embrace the alternative
> >>>>>> techniques of blindness and use them regularly. Thanks for your help
>and suggestions.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Peter Donahue
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper."
> >>>>>> Isaiah 54:17
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "While for our princes they prepare In caverns deep a burning
> >>>>>> snare, He shot from heaven a piercing ray, And the dark treachery
> >>>>>> brought to day."
> >>>>>> Anonymous
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>> t
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
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> >>>
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> >
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