[Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
Diane Graves
princess.di2007 at gmail.com
Sun Dec 16 19:04:51 UTC 2012
I think you are probably right.
Diane Graves
-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ray Foret
Jr
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 1:41 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
Well, I reckon we've carried this here subject just about as far as we can
reasonably expect to.
Sincerely,
The Constantly Barefooted Ray
Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
On Dec 16, 2012, at 12:16 PM, "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
> I agree with you, Ray. If the person truly functions well, what's the
> point of badgering him/her to use a cane, dog or other mobility aid,
> except that I deem it acceptable to ask the person to use a cane in a
> public protest or other demonstration as a symbol of blindness.
> Otherwise, why get in a snit over it? The operative question is, of
> course, whether the person truly functions well without some sort of
> blindness aid. My experience is that many of us delude ourselves into
> thinking that we *do* function well when we do not in reality. But that's
for another discussion.
>
> As I've said before, there ain't no hard-and-fast rule.
>
> Incidentally, haven't we about talked this topic to death?
>
> Mike Freeman
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ray
> Foret Jr
> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 9:50 AM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>
> Okay, so, let me see if I've got this straight now. This woman cannot
> function without a cane? Didn't quite pick that up the first time.
> As for your home; well, it's your home; but, just one small point.
> Suppose a blind person uses neither dog or cane; but, appears to be
> able to function well not withstanding? I still reckon you'd do
> better with pursuation rather than force. Seems to me that this
> situation is becoming a little more interesting than a blind woman just
not using a cane because just because.
>
>
> Sincerely,
> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
> Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
>
> On Dec 16, 2012, at 11:38 AM, "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
wrote:
>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> The article is called "The Nature of Independence." The person in
>> question is a woman. If we're being unreasonable other chapter
>> members including the president went farther and tried to keep this
>> individual from joining the chapter. The individual was removed from
>> the call list for meeting notification a situation we learned of and
>> put a stop too. This is but one of many problems that have plagued
>> our chapter during
> the year.
>> Please keep us in your prayers that we can begin putting things right
>> next month when we elect new officers for 2013. As for our home we
>> make the rules here. If you depend on a travel aid for your
>> independence and can't function without it if you wish to visit
>> you're expected to use it. That's a non negotiable with us. We'll
>> keep you posted
> on what happens.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Brian Miller" <brianrmiller88 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 10:24 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>
>>
>> Dear Peter,
>>
>> I think Dianne gives some excellent advice here. Your example of
>> competent travel, using dog or cane, will do much more than any tough
>> love tactics you may employ. You can only show this person another
>> way, you can't force them to embrace it.
>>
>> Being there for this person, even when they make poor choices, all
>> the while you show him an alternative will go a long way.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Brian Miller
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>> pkt52 at aol.com
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 10:29 AM
>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>
>>> Diane - what a kind and logical response! I love what you
>>> have written!!!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Diane Graves <princess.di2007 at gmail.com>
>>> To: blinddog3 <blinddog3 at charter.net>; 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
>>> <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sun, Dec 16, 2012 10:24 am
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Guys,
>>>
>>> Does anyone remember the article Dr. Jernigan wrote about this
>>> dilemma? The name of the article is escaping me at this time, but I
>>> remember that at the end, the gist of the writing was summarized by
>>> a statement along the lines of "whether dog, or cane or human arm"
>>> the choice belongs to the individual, and the overall objective is
>>> to get where you need to go and do what you need to do.
>>>
>>> In the NFB, we meet people at all levels. Some are newly blind,
>>> others re blind people who have been sheltered all of their lives,
>>> others are people that are so independent that they think they could
>>> climb a skyscraper and survive. (A little over the top there, but
>>> you know what I mean.)
>>>
>>> Anyway, our job is not to judge them or dictate to them. Our job is
>>> to meet them where they are and do our best to help them. Whether or
>>> not they accept that help is up to them. The behavior that you are
>>> describing is one reason that many blind people don't want anything
>>> to do with the federation.
>>> It sounds to me like the members are refusing their friendship on
>>> the basis of his decision. Do you really think that is going to help
him?
>>>
>>> If one is so uncaring that they would call someone a cab and send
>>> them home at their expense, then why in the world would they have to
>>> take anyone to the emergency room? Call an ambulance.
>>>
>>> With conditional friendship like that, I'm not sure why anyone would
>>> want to visit these members or be a part of the chapter anyway. He
>>> could, incidentally refuse to get into the cab and ride home at his
>>> expense.
>>>
>>> For the record, I think it is a foolish decision myself, but I
>>> wouldn't refuse friendship on that basis, any more than I would
>>> refuse friendship on the basis of whether someone was too thin or
>>> too fat, or of another culture or any number of other characteristics.
>>> When you think about it, maybe actually being escorted/lead by a few
>>> blind people would teach this guy that he could, in fact, learn to
>>> travel himself.
>>>
>>> Finally, I would just point out that, while there are a good many
>>> sighted people who have a healthy perspective about blindness, there
>>> are some sighted people who have some ridiculous ideas. It may very
>>> well be true that some crazy neurologist did tell him that a cane
>>> might aggravate his seizure disorder. You just don't know.
>>>
>>> Diane Graves
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Steven Johnson
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 8:37 AM
>>> To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>
>>> Peter,
>>> Although I am not an attorney, I am well-versed in the ADA, and with
>>> all due respect, I do not believe the ADA has any application here
>>> as the concept of direct threat, applies to Title I, covering
>>> provisions of employment; not Titles II or III. It's a choice by
>>> this individual to go out into public without the use of an aide
>>> such as a cane, or guide, but their choice is sighted guide. They
>>> are not posing a risk to anyone but themselves, but I can assure you
>>> that if this person was employed, the application might be viable.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Peter Donahue
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 6:53 AM
>>> To: nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> Cc: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List; Daniel Carr; NFBnet Blind Law
>>> Mailing List; NFB of Florida Internet Mailing List
>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>
>>> Good morning everyone,
>>>
>>> An who belonged to our Florida Affiliate recently moved to San
>>> Antonio and wishes to join our chapter. This person is totally blind
>>> and absolutely refuses to use a cane. They recently showed up at our
>>> Christmas party and had to be helped in to and out of the meeting
>>> room we used for this event.
>>> Members were surprised when they discovered that this person showed
>>> up without their cane. When later questioned about this the person
>>> began giving us all manner of excuse. They told us that their
>>> neurologist and past O&M instructors recommended against the use of
>>> the cane due to this person's having seizures. This individual
>>> attended Perkins along with a number of other schools for the blind.
>>> I know for a fact that at least while at Perkins this individual
>>> lived in a cottage with another person who also has seizures and is
>>> one of the best travelers I know. Like this person, the confident
>>> cane user is totally blind and is someone I came to know well. The
>>> individual in question undoubtedly met many other successful blind
>>> cane users with other disabilities. I myself have seizures and sleep
>>> apnea and use both a cane and a dog depending on the situation.
>>>
>>> The individual refusing to use their cane has all ready been told
>>> by several members in the area that if they wish to visit them
>>> the/she must bring their cane and use it to get from their
>>> transportation in to our residence and if necessary use the cane
>>> during their visit.
>>>
>>> When attempting to reason with the person in question members have
>>> been accused of "Bullying" them and have heard all excuses in the
>>> book why he/she cannot use a cane proficiently. The individual has
>>> been told that neurologists are not qualified to determine whether
>>> or not the use of a travel aid can effect one's seizures. The
>>> evidence to the contrary is over whelmingly against this
>>> horsepuckey. As we also know not all blindness professionals have
>>> true belief in the capabilities of the blind. This individual
>>> obviously had a few such persons in their life to sell them short on
>>> their ability to travel independently and on the importance of using
>>> a cane or a dog. The individual has been told that if they show up
>>> at any of our homes without their cane we will call them a cab and
>>> promptly send them home at their expense something they can avoid
>>> simply by listening to reason and using their cane whenever traveling.
We're busy people.
>>> The last thing we need to have to do is take someone to the
>>> emergency room when we know that an individual has complete
>>> disregard for their personal safety and as negligent. It seems like
>>> direct threat provisions of the ADA may apply in this situation
>>> where public venues are concerned. The lawyers can help us wit this one.
>>>
>>> We want to help this person achieve a higher degree of
>>> independence and be an active member of our chapter. While we won't
>>> prohibit them from joining us they'll be a more effective
>>> contributor to the cause if they would embrace the alternative
>>> techniques of blindness and use them regularly.
>>> Thanks for your help and suggestions.
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>> "No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper."
>>> Isaiah 54:17
>>>
>>> "While for our princes they prepare
>>> In caverns deep a burning snare,
>>> He shot from heaven a piercing ray,
>>> And the dark treachery brought to day."
>>> Anonymous
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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