[Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
Diane Graves
princess.di2007 at gmail.com
Sun Dec 16 19:08:17 UTC 2012
Years and years ago, I had a sighted person think they were going to lead me
by my cane. He picked up the end of my cane and was going to use it like a
leash. I can't begin to understand the mind of the sighted sometimes.
Diane
-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gloria
Whipple
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 1:45 PM
To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
When I was going to college, that is what happened to me.
I was on my way to my next class when the person who I was walking with
grabbed my cane. Very politely I told her that I didn't appreciate it and it
made me feel nervous.
Gloria Whipple
-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ray Foret
Jr
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 09:19
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
A very slight electicle correction is exactly what I had in mind. Not
enough to really hurt; of course, just enough to put some motivation in to
the person ahead of you to get moving. Come to think of it, hey, that might
just be the thing to if a sighted person just up and grabs the tip of your
cane as you start going somewhere. Don't you just love when they do that?
Sincerely,
The Constantly Barefooted Ray
Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
On Dec 16, 2012, at 11:09 AM, Michelle Medina <michellem86 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Lol. Yep!
>
> A shock? Lol.
>
> On 12/16/12, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
>> As a weapon? New one for me. Yeah, I suspect that what we'd need is
>> a
cane
>> with a battery in the handle; and, when you detect a person in line
>> who
just
>> will not move up with the line, just put the tip of your cane against
them
>> and press the button in the handle. Want to guess what the unmoving
>> pkerson receives?
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
>> Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
>>
>> On Dec 16, 2012, at 10:29 AM, Michelle Medina <michellem86 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Lol!! Yes, all good reasons for a cane. When I was still in short
>>> pants my mobility teacher would gather us around every few months
>>> and add another few reasons for use to the list he was making. Lol.
>>> These included, but were not limited to:
>>> Pogo stick, weapon, vehicle detector *when said vehicle wasn't
>>> moving or turnd on*, person detector *those who wouldn't move when
>>> they saw you coming so you could um, nudge, them along*, echo
>>> locator, a goof-off article when you were bored as heck and trying
>>> to stay awake during a mobility lesson where lots of talking was
>>> taking place and little movement was taking place, and there were
>>> tons more. 64 or 65 in fact. My favorite was the pogo stick personally.
Lol!!
>>> And of course, there was the very serious notion that the cane gave
>>> us our independence. I think at 26 that notion sits pretty well with me.
>>> I've made it through school that was woefully inadequate and now am
>>> moving on to schooling where people are HOPEFULLY, much more mature
>>> human beings!!!
>>> Oh, I forgot, night-stick or batton!! Lol. Guess those COULD go
>>> under the weapon category though?
>>>
>>> On 12/16/12, Ray Foret Jr <rforetjr at att.net> wrote:
>>>> Well, for me, the dog would not work. Frankly, I am not an animal
>>>> person; therefore, it would be dredfully unfair to the poor dog if
>>>> I had one.
>>>> Now,
>>>> mind you, I am not trying to suggest I would deliberately be crewel
>>>> to the dog; no way man; however, I am suggesting that for me, as
>>>> with some others, the staff is a much better option.
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
>>>> Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 16, 2012, at 9:56 AM, "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Actually, although there *was* some anti-dog prejudice among some
>>>>> members of NFB, it was never NFB policy and, in fact, a great deal
>>>>> of such thinking came in reaction to over-the-top claims
>>>>> concerning the effectiveness
of
>>>>> dogs
>>>>> and an equally virulent prejudice by some dog-users against cane
>>>>> use and denigration of the effectiveness of cane use by those dog
>>>>> users. And have you ever noticed how many times such adamant
>>>>> refusal to consider NFB
is
>>>>> based upon heresay and not upon actual experience?
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Diane Graves
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 7:40 AM
>>>>> To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>>>
>>>>> That's it! Thank you ray! I wanted to look it up, but couldn't
>>>>> think
of
>>>>> the
>>>>> name for the life of me. Didn't know where to start.
>>>>>
>>>>> There was apparently a time in the history of our organization
>>>>> (long before I joined) when members were giving each other grief
>>>>> about using a dog as opposed to using a cane. And I know,
>>>>> absolutely know, that that is one reason some blind people won't
>>>>> join us. I've had people tell me so,
and
>>>>> nothing I could say would convince them that things had changed.
>>>>> They are convinced that it is still that way and they're sticking
>>>>> to that
belief
>>>>> no
>>>>> matter what.
>>>>>
>>>>> Diane Graves
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Ray Foret Jr
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 10:31 AM
>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>>>
>>>>> The title you are looking for is, "The Nature of independence".
>>>>>
>>>>> HTH.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
>>>>> Still a very proud and happy Mac and Iphone user!
>>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 16, 2012, at 9:22 AM, Diane Graves
>>>>> <princess.di2007 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Guys,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does anyone remember the article Dr. Jernigan wrote about this
>>>>>> dilemma? The name of the article is escaping me at this time, but
>>>>>> I remember that at the end, the gist of the writing was
>>>>>> summarized by a statement along the lines of "whether dog, or
>>>>>> cane or human arm" the choice belongs to the individual, and the
>>>>>> overall objective is to get where you need to go and do what you need
to do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the NFB, we meet people at all levels. Some are newly blind,
others
>>>>>> re blind people who have been sheltered all of their lives,
>>>>>> others
are
>>>>>> people that are so independent that they think they could climb a
>>>>>> skyscraper and survive. (A little over the top there, but you
>>>>>> know what I mean.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, our job is not to judge them or dictate to them. Our job
>>>>>> is
to
>>>>>> meet them where they are and do our best to help them. Whether or
>>>>>> not they accept that help is up to them. The behavior that you
>>>>>> are describing is one reason that many blind people don't want
>>>>>> anything
to
>>>>>> do with the federation. It sounds to me like the members are
refusing
>>>>>> their friendship on the basis of his decision. Do you really
>>>>>> think that is
>>>>> going to help him?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If one is so uncaring that they would call someone a cab and send
them
>>>>>> home at their expense, then why in the world would they have to
>>>>>> take anyone to the emergency room? Call an ambulance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With conditional friendship like that, I'm not sure why anyone
>>>>>> would want to visit these members or be a part of the chapter
>>>>>> anyway. He could, incidentally refuse to get into the cab and
>>>>>> ride home at his
>>>>> expense.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For the record, I think it is a foolish decision myself, but I
>>>>>> wouldn't refuse friendship on that basis, any more than I would
refuse
>>>>>> friendship on the basis of whether someone was too thin or too
>>>>>> fat,
or
>>>>>> of another culture or any number of other characteristics. When
>>>>>> you think about it, maybe actually being escorted/lead by a few
>>>>>> blind people would teach this guy that he could, in fact, learn
>>>>>> to travel
>>>>> himself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Finally, I would just point out that, while there are a good many
>>>>>> sighted people who have a healthy perspective about blindness,
>>>>>> there are some sighted people who have some ridiculous ideas. It
>>>>>> may very well be true that some crazy neurologist did tell him
>>>>>> that a cane might aggravate his seizure disorder. You just don't
know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Diane Graves
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: [ :blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steven
>>>>>> Johnson
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 8:37 AM
>>>>>> To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>> Although I am not an attorney, I am well-versed in the ADA, and
>>>>>> with all due respect, I do not believe the ADA has any
>>>>>> application here as the concept of direct threat, applies to
>>>>>> Title I, covering provisions of employment; not Titles II or III.
>>>>>> It's a choice by this
individual
>>>>>> to go out into public without the use of an aide such as a cane,
>>>>>> or guide, but their choice is sighted guide. They are not posing
>>>>>> a risk to anyone but themselves, but I can assure you that if
>>>>>> this person
was
>>>>>> employed, the application might be viable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
Peter
>>>>>> Donahue
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 6:53 AM
>>>>>> To: nfb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Cc: NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List; Daniel Carr; NFBnet Blind Law
>>>>>> Mailing List; NFB of Florida Internet Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Refusal To Use A Cane
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good morning everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> An who belonged to our Florida Affiliate recently moved to San
>>>>>> Antonio and wishes to join our chapter. This person is totally
>>>>>> blind and absolutely refuses to use a cane. They recently showed
>>>>>> up at our Christmas party and had to be helped in to and out of
>>>>>> the meeting
room
>>>>>> we
>>>>> used for this event.
>>>>>> Members were surprised when they discovered that this person
>>>>>> showed
up
>>>>>> without their cane. When later questioned about this the person
>>>>>> began giving us all manner of excuse. They told us that their
>>>>>> neurologist and past O&M instructors recommended against the use
>>>>>> of the cane due to this person's having seizures. This individual
>>>>>> attended Perkins along with a number of other schools for the
>>>>>> blind. I know for a fact that at least while at Perkins this
>>>>>> individual lived in a cottage
with
>>>>>> another person who also has seizures and is one of the best
>>>>>> travelers I know. Like this person, the confident cane user is
>>>>>> totally blind
and
>>>>>> is someone I came to know well. The individual in question
undoubtedly
>>>>>> met many other successful blind cane users with other
>>>>>> disabilities. I myself have seizures and sleep apnea and use both
>>>>>> a cane and a dog
>>>>> depending on the situation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The individual refusing to use their cane has all ready been told
>>>>>> by several members in the area that if they wish to visit them
the/she
>>>>>> must bring their cane and use it to get from their transportation
>>>>>> in to our residence and if necessary use the cane during their visit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When attempting to reason with the person in question members
>>>>>> have been accused of "Bullying" them and have heard all excuses
>>>>>> in the
book
>>>>>> why he/she cannot use a cane proficiently. The individual has
>>>>>> been told that neurologists are not qualified to determine
>>>>>> whether or not the use of a travel aid can effect one's seizures.
>>>>>> The evidence to
the
>>>>>> contrary is over whelmingly against this horsepuckey. As we also
>>>>>> know not all blindness professionals have true belief in the
>>>>>> capabilities of the blind. This individual obviously had a few
>>>>>> such persons in their life to sell them short on their ability to
>>>>>> travel
independently
>>>>>> and on the importance of using a cane or a dog. The individual
>>>>>> has been told that if they show up at any of our homes without
>>>>>> their cane we will call them a cab and promptly send them home at
>>>>>> their expense something they can avoid simply by listening to
>>>>>> reason and using
their
>>>>>> cane whenever traveling. We're busy people. The last thing we
>>>>>> need to have to do is take someone to the emergency room when we
>>>>>> know that an individual has complete disregard for their personal
>>>>>> safety and as negligent. It seems like direct threat provisions
>>>>>> of the ADA may
apply
>>>>>> in this situation where public venues are concerned. The lawyers
>>>>>> can help
>>>>> us wit this one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We want to help this person achieve a higher degree of
>>>>>> independence and be an active member of our chapter. While we
>>>>>> won't prohibit them from joining us they'll be a more effective
>>>>>> contributor to the cause if they would embrace the alternative
>>>>>> techniques of blindness and use them regularly. Thanks for your help
and suggestions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper."
>>>>>> Isaiah 54:17
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "While for our princes they prepare In caverns deep a burning
>>>>>> snare, He shot from heaven a piercing ray, And the dark treachery
>>>>>> brought to day."
>>>>>> Anonymous
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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