[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?
Robin
robin-melvin at comcast.net
Mon Apr 1 02:02:38 UTC 2013
I AGREE with you!
At 09:10 PM 3/22/2013, you wrote:
>That paragraph actually encapsulates all that I was trying to say.
>Choice is power, and if I take things away from reading these
>discussions, I don't think to myself, "an NFB member gave this advice,
>so I must now be affiliated with them." I think of it as strength,
>advice, etc. from one fellow human being who happens to be blind to
>another.
>There is safety in numbers, as they say, but where we find that safety
>varies greatly from individual to individual. There are leaders,
>followers, and searchers. Some love to take the bull by the horns and
>take pride in the fact that they're directing it. Some like to admire
>the work those people are doing, but for whatever reason feel they
>can't contribute enough to be as substantial, or perhaps are simply
>more laid-back in temperament and don't like to be where the action
>is. And then there are those who don't fall into either category,
>because they prefer to analyze the inner workings of everyone and
>everything around them. Sometimes they speak up, and sometimes they
>blend into the background. I would say I fall into that last category.
>I fully realize that the leaders will think I'm using this explanation
>as a cop out and the followers will wonder what hole I crawled out of,
>but that's ok. I realize that this is operating under a pretty big
>assumption--that is, that there really are only three kinds of people
>in this world, which really isn't true. But sometimes, in order to
>make a general point that doesn't take 10 hours to read, you have to
>narrow things down to what's most important, and what's most likely to
>be understood in the most concise way. I haven't been making my case
>to get support; that's not something I expect from anyone. What I am
>saying is that most of us are valuable. We all have something to share
>that might help others. But as the so-called blind community, we don't
>need to place ourselves in neat little packages to do so. Whether NFB,
>ACB, or no member at all, you're a person first in my eyes, and I'll
>listen to what you say accordingly.
>
>On 3/22/13, Chris Nusbaum <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Desiree,
> >
> > That is true of some NFB members,and I have experienced it for myself. But,
> > in my experience, the vast majority of us are not like that, nor are most
> > of
> > our leaders. Reading or listening to Dr. Jernigan's 1993 speech "The Nature
> > of Independence" proves this. Although I would suggest reading the speech
> > in
> > its entirety, here's the last paragraph, which I think captures the ideas
> > behind the speech and Dr. Jernigan's beliefs about independence. I daresay
> > most NFB members share these views. I certainly do. Here it is:
> >
> > "In conclusion, I say to each member of this organization: Hold your head
> > high in the joy of accomplishment and the pride of independence-but not
> > because of dog or cane or human arm, and not because of your ability to
> > read
> > Braille or use a computer. These are the trappings of independence, not the
> > substance of it. They should be learned, and used when needed-but they
> > should be regarded only as means, not ends. Our independence comes from
> > within. A slave can have keen eyesight, excellent mobility, and superb
> > reading skills-and still be a slave. We are achieving freedom and
> > independence in the only way that really counts-in rising self-respect,
> > growing self-confidence, and the will and the ability to make choices.
> > Above
> > all, independence means choices, and the power to make those choices stick.
> > We are getting that power, and we intend to have more of it. That is why we
> > have organized. That is why we have the National Federation of the Blind.
> > We
> > know where we are going, and we know how to get there. Let anybody who
> > doubts it put us to the test. My brothers and my sisters, the future is
> > ours! Let us meet it with joy; let us meet it with hope; and (most
> > important
> > of all) let us meet it together!" The rest of the speech can be found here:
> > https://nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications/convent/addres93.htm
> >
> >
> > Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair
> > Public Relations Committee
> > Maryland Association of Blind Students
> > Phone: (443) 547-2409
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Desiree
> > Oudinot
> > Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 8:41 PM
> > To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
> > Not?
> >
> > Not always. it just seems that the second you disagree with an NFB member
> > about their philosophy, the first thing they want to do is insult you for
> > it. I'm not going to go into detail about where or why this happened to me,
> > but all I wanted were some straightforward answers about why the NFB does
> > certain things, and I got told a lot of things that were downright rude and
> > disrespectful. If not all members are like this, which I sincerely hope
> > they're not, I apologize for generalizing, but our personal experiences do
> > shape what we believe to one degree or another.
> >
> > On 3/22/13, Chris Nusbaum <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Desiree,
> >>
> >> I know it's a figure of speech, but... lions' den? Is that what you
> >> see the NFB as?
> >>
> >> Chris
> >>
> >> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair
> >> Public Relations Committee
> >> Maryland Association of Blind Students
> >> Phone: (443) 547-2409
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> >> Desiree Oudinot
> >> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 7:27 PM
> >> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> >> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers
> >> or Not?
> >>
> >> I concur with your assessment, but don't expect to get any support
> >> from NFB members. I give you props for willingly entering the lion's den,
> > though.
> >>
> >> On 3/22/13, kelby carlson <kelbycarlson at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> My reservations are primarily attached to what I see as a "my way or
> >>> the highway" mentality. Despite protestations to the contrary, I get
> >>> the distinct feeling the NFB really believes it has found *the way*
> >>> of understanding and living with blindness. While the NFB's
> >>> particular methodology may work for some people--and has a good deal
> >>> to commend it--it's just not something I'm comfortable embracing. I
> >>> also detect a kind of insularity--a constant "looking in" if you
> >>> will--that is unhelpful. It's one thing to have a like-minded
> >>> community, but I sometimes feel as if there is a kind of feeling of
> >>> superiority over sighted people--or even non-Federationists! I have
> >>> felt distinctly out of the loop and out of place at some NFB events
> >>> because I wasn't "plugged in", didn't know the lingo, and didn't have
> >>> the kind of personal history that most other federationists seem to
> >>> have. I cannot use these experiences to discourage anyone from
> >>> joining the NFB, nor do I wish to. As I said previously in this
> >>> discussion, I am uncomfortable with arguments based on anecdotal
> >>> experience. This, then, is not an argument for or against the NFB--it
> >>> probably explains more about me than the Federation. I hope that helps
> > clarify a little.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> A good soldier is not measured by how many bullets they fire, but by
> >>>> their dedication to the cause. And a warrior doesn't need to be on
> >>>> the battlefield to prove his worth to society.
> >>>>
> >>>> On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Be a warrior. Be on the frong lines.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> >>>>> kelby carlson
> >>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:52 PM
> >>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
> >>>>> Centers or Not?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My perspective is similar to Desiree's. I have every intention of
> >>>>> getting more involved in blindness advocacy in some way. However, I
> >>>>> have reservations about all of the organizations there are. (It's
> >>>>> totally possible those reservations will go away some day.) For
> >>>>> now, I want to figure out what's going to work best for me as a
> >>>>> blind person and do what I can individually to help others as well.
> >>>>> There is great value in collectivity--no mistake--I'm just at a
> >>>>> place where that isn't how I believe i can best function. I do hope
> >>>>> to attend the convention one of these years, though, and my mind
> >>>>> could definitely change!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I know I may come across sounding antagonistic toward the
> >>>>> Federation at times. I need to work harder on moderating what I say
> >>>>> and how I say it. But believe me when I say I see a ton of value in
> >>>>> the Federation and a great deal that I like and agree with.
> >>>>> Fundamentally, my philosophy is very similar (I think) to the NFB
> >>>>> philosophy. How it is worked out practically is sometimes where the
> >> rubber meets the road.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>> While I won't speak for Peter, I'll give my own perspective on why
> >>>>>> I choose not to join the NFB or ACB.
> >>>>>> It's not about having a superiority complex. I don't consider
> >>>>>> myself to be better than anyone who is part of an organization.
> >>>>>> however, I like to draw my own conclusions, keeping politics and
> >>>>>> hidden agendas at arm's length. That's why my involvement only
> >>>>>> extends as far as listservs will take it. I feel that reading
> >>>>>> messages written by individual members is a much more unbiased,
> >>>>>> not to mention realistic view, of how the members of each
> >>>>>> organization live, work and interact in day-to-day life. At a
> >>>>>> meeting or convention, there's the expectation that one must carry
> >>>>>> themselves a certain way, say the right things, be inspired by all
> >>>>>> the right catch phrases. That's not limited to organizations for
> >>>>>> or of the blind, either, that's a fact of human nature. When you
> >>>>>> draw a large number of like-minded individuals together, and get
> >>>>>> them all to focus on one specific problem, proposition, or what
> >>>>>> have you, the people will either put their best or worst foot
> >>>>>> forward collectively. There is little time for individual thought
> >>>>>> processes, emotions, or personalities to take root and stand above
> >>>>>> the
> >> rest.
> >>>>>> I am, by nature, very reserved, maybe I could even be classified
> >>>>>> as a loner in a lot of ways. As I said, I think and draw
> >>>>>> conclusions best when there are no distractions, no bells and
> >>>>>> whistles so to speak. I take what is important to me, what fits in
> >>>>>> with my values and beliefs, and apply it to how I live my life. I
> >>>>>> don't honestly feel that I need to belong to anything to find my
> >>>>>> purpose, nor should I be told that I have no purpose unless I'm at
> >>>>>> the forefront of every high and low point in the organization's
> >>>>>> history. I am content with this, and I feel that I have a right to
> >>>>>> speak out about it, since it's a viewpoint which most who hold it
> >>>>>> would probably not be comfortable expressing for fear of being
> >>>>>> blamed and
> >> shamed.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 3/22/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>> Hello, Peter. I have not followed this thread, but I have looked
> >>>>>>> at one or two of your posts. I think it is a shame that you will
> >>>>>>> not join the American Council of the Blind or the National
> >>>>>>> Federation of the Blind.
> >>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>> suppose you believe there is some kind of superiority in being
> >>>>>>> what you might call an independent. Perhaps you are right, but
> >>>>>>> my own life experience indicates that having influence means
> >>>>>>> joining with others of like mind, exploring how you can
> >>>>>>> understand them and get them to understand you, and then acting
> >>>>>>> together in a concerted way to bring about the better world we all
> > say we want.
> >>>>>>> One popular buzzword you can't help but hear if you listen to
> >>>>>>> five minutes of the news is the word infrastructure, but there is
> >>>>>>> a lot to be said for having a way to effect the change we want.
> >>>>>>> For me this is the National Federation of the Blind. For others
> >>>>>>> it is the American Council of the Blind. Though the
> >>>>>>> organizations may disagree from time to time, one thing most all
> >>>>>>> of us share is that we have made a commitment to blind people
> >>>>>>> that extends beyond words. We are willing to put our time, our
> >>>>>>> energy, and our money into helping you, whether or not you
> >>>>>>> appreciate that we do so or ever raise a finger to help us. Much
> >>>>>>> distance remains for us to travel, and we certainly can use a
> >>>>>>> willing
> > hand at the oars.
> >>>>>>> Thanks for reading.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> >>>>>>> Peter Wolfe
> >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:52 PM
> >>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
> >>>>>>> Centers or Not?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In fact, the best method that anybody can teach you is
> >>>>>>> improvization not technique persay. It doesn't matter where you
> >>>>>>> get any information from on these things whether NFB, ACB, AFB,
> >>>>>>> Lion's Club's or wherever as long as you get whatever information.
> >>>>>>> Make-up yoru own techniques and sell a book for all I care as
> >>>>>>> long as it works for you that is all that counts. I could
> >>>>>>> careless as logn as you share the information with fellow blind
> >>>>>>> individuals that is my thhing that it shouldn't matter what
> >>>>>>> special interest group that your apart of cause we should all
> >>>>>>> work together in dealing with a rotten situation to make it
> >>>>>>> better. By the way, I'm never going to be part of NFB, ACB, AFB or
> > any of them.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> sincerely,
> >>>>>>> Peter
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Kelby,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive answer.
> >>>>>>>> I can only tell you that I received training before there were
> >>>>>>>> NFB centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler and
> >>>>>>>> have generally managed my life successfully. However, in the
> >>>>>>>> work I have done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there are
> >>>>>>>> things I missed when I was trained. I think I have picked up
> >>>>>>>> much of what I missed primarily because of my association with
> >>>>>>>> others
> >> in the Federation.
> >>>>>>>> It
> >>>>>>>> has more to do with being confident enough to try new situations
> >>>>>>>> and knowing that I'll figure them out even if I don't know
> >>>>>>>> exactly how at the start, and less to do with how many inches I
> >>>>>>>> swing my cane left and right. In my opinion, and you may see
> >>>>>>>> this as a cop-out, it has less to do with comparing the quality
> >>>>>>>> of one's travel skills and more to do with whether one actually
> >>>>>>>> gets out and travels. These are not easy things to measure.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the
> >>>>>>>> past, but I don't know how well you travel, for example. What I
> >>>>>>>> do know is that most of us are affected by the general attitudes
> >>>>>>>> that surround us in a way that is hard to measure. Even though
> >>>>>>>> we have some idea of what our capabilities are, unless we are
> >>>>>>>> exceptionally confident, we are going to tend to believe it if
> >>>>>>>> we are uncertain how we would accomplish a given thing and
> >>>>>>>> someone tells us we can't do it. I believe there was a time
> >>>>>>>> when there was a clear dividing line between NFB training
> >>>>>>>> centers and many other centers. We believed that we have to
> >>>>>>>> affect one's attitude toward blindness and oneself while most
> >>>>>>>> other centers believed that they need to concentrate on teaching
> > techniques.
> >>>>>>>> The common belief among some other centers was that changing
> >>>>>>>> attitudes toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was
> >>>>>>>> outside of their mandate.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that
> >>>>>>>> there is a more general acceptance of the notion that one's
> >>>>>>>> belief in oneself is probably as important as the techniques
> >>>>>>>> used so some of the lines are not as clear as they once were.
> >>>>>>>> Still, I am skeptical of how well attitudes can be changed in a
> >>>>>>>> couple of months, but of course, it depends some upon the
> >>>>>>>> starting point of the individual.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not
> >>>>>>>> all good travelers. The person making the observation, who
> >>>>>>>> shall remain nameless, said that they felt a need to jump in and
> >>>>>>>> help but there were too many people to try to help all at once.
> >>>>>>>> However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people
> >>>>>>>> were getting where they needed to go without assistance, and
> >>>>>>>> that what appeared to be potentially frustrating to an observer
> >>>>>>>> was not the case for the traveler. This isn't meant to diminish
> >>>>>>>> the role of good travel techniques, only to make the point that
> >>>>>>>> there is more to travel than techniques. Having said all this,
> >>>>>>>> though, I also believe that what we have come to call structured
> >>>>>>>> discovery is a valid difference in how one learns to travel. In
> >>>>>>>> some ways, it takes longer to learn but provides a better base
> >>>>>>>> from which to work. Some of us who did not attend NFB training
> >>>>>>>> centers have adopted this approach on our own to some degree,
> >>>>>>>> but we would probably have adopted it more easily having had
> >>>>>>>> training in an NFB center.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
> >>>>>>>> Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have taken.
> >>>>>>>> Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem to
> >>>>>>>> be more open to the possibility that there are sometimes reasons
> >>>>>>>> for positions we might have taken. I won't bore you with the
> >>>>>>>> details of the time I almost missed a flight because I allowed
> >>>>>>>> myself to be talked into waiting for a cart, only to have one
> >>>>>>>> not be available for close to an hour, and how the airline
> >>>>>>>> employee refused to tell me which gate I needed to get to.
> >>>>>>>> Anyway, some of what you are hearing here would have been a part
> >>>>>>>> of your training at an NFB Center. You would likely have been
> >>>>>>>> given the chance to interact personally with people who had
> >>>>>>>> similar experiences so that you could ask them questions. You
> >>>>>>>> can get some of this information here, of course, but what about
> >>>>>>>> the many
> >> experiences that are not discussed?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one
> >>>>>>>> another.
> >>>>>>>> My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was,
> >>>>>>>> because it might be all right. I feel pretty certain that there
> >>>>>>>> are things you didn't get that you would have gotten had you
> >>>>>>>> spent time in one of our centers as indicated above, but I don't
> >>>>>>>> really think that is the point. The point is how can we help
> >>>>>>>> you now and how can you help us and other blind people? Are
> >>>>>>>> there things you are not comfortable doing that perhaps someone
> >>>>>>>> else here is comfortable doing? We could even explore here some
> >>>>>>>> of the things that many of us have overcome as a result of the
> >>>>>>>> encouragement from others.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly
> >>>>>>>> as I see them, isn't that always true? In the end, though, I
> >>>>>>>> don't care that much whether you believe there is a difference
> >>>>>>>> in training centers or not. I care more that you have what you
> >>>>>>>> need to get a job when you get out of college and that you are
> >>>>>>>> able to live as full a life as you can live, and I believe there
> >>>>>>>> are ways we can help you do that.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Best regards,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from
> >>>>>>>>>federationists-that my local training simply must have been far,
> >>>>>>>>>far inferior to anything the NFB has. I have as of yet seen no
> >>>>>>>>>actual compelling evidence for this claim, and no one I know
> >>>>>>>>>well in the NFB has offered me convincing reasons as to why the
> >>>>>>>>>training I have is bad. (Those who don't know me can't offer
> >>>>>>>>>any reasons, as they don't know my context.) If NFB mobility is
> >>>>>>>>>so wonderful, I wish they would allow people interested to pay
> >>>>>>>>>for a little instruction to get a sense of their methodology in
> >>>>>>>>>real space time rather than forcing people to commit to six to
> >>>>>>>>>nine months.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>Kelby
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>>>From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
> >>>>>>>>>To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu,
> >>>>>>>>>21 Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
> >>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
> >>>>>>>>>Scenario
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>Well we all need good mobility skills. A dog is not a
> >>>>>>>>>replacement for mobility skills. Whether you use a cane,
> >>>>>>>>>sighted guide, or a guide dog.
> >>>>>>>>>If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get
> >>>>>>>>>locally then you don't know what you are missing.
> >>>>>>>>>Never going to them myself. I have seen what someone with no
> >>>>>>>>>knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own
> >>>>>>>>>areas, and come back from our schools with the confidence and
> >>>>>>>>>the mobility and the other services that are given there.
> >>>>>>>>>If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
> >>>>>>>>>philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and
> >>>>>>>>>then a dog. I have not been blind all my life. I lost my
> >>>>>>>>>vision as an adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills,
> >>>>>>>>>my dog doesn't know when to cross the street, I have to give
> >>>>>>>>>him the direction to do so.
> >>>>>>>>>Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to
> >>>>>>>>>mention when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will
> >>>>>>>>>either not want to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or
> >>>>>>>>>in between a dog, or whatever the issues are. That I know the
> >>>>>>>>>skills to get me where I want to go whether it is with my Maxx
> >>>>>>>>>or not.
> >>>>>>>>>Have a great night all.
> >>>>>>>>>Take care and god bless.
> >>>>>>>>>Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with
> >>>>>>>>>kindness to one another; and with the philosophy of the great
> > organization.
> >>>>>>>>>Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the
> >>>>>>>>>Way in Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel
> >>>>>>>>>Advocate!Cheryl Echevarria,
> >>>>>>>>>Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@ech
> >>>>>>>>>e
> >>>>>>>>>varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
> >>>>>>>>>Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
> >>>>>>>>>Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST
> >>>>>>>>>- #1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
> >>>>>>>>>Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser
> >>>>>>>>>for the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other
> >> resources.
> >>>>>>>>>Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6,
> >>>>>>>>>2013 and vacation must be traveled no later than
> >>>>>>>>>12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
> >>>>>>>>>Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families
> >>>>>>>>>and friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the
> >>>>>>>>>affiliate as well. You do not need to be a member of the
> >>>>>>>>>NFB.org, just book through us.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
> >>>>>>>>> From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
> >>>>>>>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
> >>>>>>>>> Scenario
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I'll echo what Cindysaid. There isno way I would give up that
> >>>>>>>>>much time for mobility training I already had purely for the
> >>>>>>>>>purpose of getting a dog. ZPeter said, I would go somewhere
> >>>>>>>>>else
> >> straightaway.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Kelby
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
> >>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent:
> >>>>>>>>>Thu,
> >>>>>>>>>21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
> >>>>>>>>>Scenario
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a
> >>>>>>>>> real lack of quality training for blind people. I don't really
> >>>>>>>>> think that's the case with guide schools. There are some
> >>>>>>>>> schools which do things differently from others. But, there
> >>>>>>>>> are people who prefer one approach over another. I don't
> >>>>>>>>> really think that NFB needs to get involved with guide dog
> > training.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the
> >>>>>>>>>nine month NFB center training, first, this will severely limit
> >>>>>>>>>the number of people choosing to have training from an NFB
> >>>>>>>>>guide dog school, should one be started. I don't know to many
> >>>>>>>>>people who can give up a year of their life to get a guide dog.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Cindy
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>>> From: Peter Donahue
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
> >>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
> >>>>>>>>> Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in
> >>>>>>>>>the past so she knows where I'm coming from. In line with her
> >>>>>>>>>comments below I'd like to suggest a possible scenario for an
> >>>>>>>>>NFB-run guide dog program:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Since we all ready have three orientation and
> >>>>>>>>>adjustment centers for blind adults and youth there would be no
> >>>>>>>>>need for a facility for housing students in training to be
> > constructed.
> >>>>>>>>>Hold on folks.
> >>>>>>>>>Students
> >>>>>>>>> wishing to
> >>>>>>>>> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
> >>>>>>>>>complete the
> >>>>>>>>> 6-9 month program at one of the centers. During the student's
> >>>>>>>>>"Bootcamp training" the center has an opportunity to come to
> >>>>>>>>>know the student inside-out and will be able to furnish lots
> >>>>>>>>>of background information on the applicant to the guide dog unit.
> >>>>>>>>>Unlike current guide dog programs that must rely on references
> >>>>>>>>>and other information that may be true or false the NFB guide
> >>>>>>>>>dog program will have all ready had accurate information
> >>>>>>>>>gathered for them by the training center and can be assured
> >>>>>>>>>that the applicant is a suitable candidate for a dog.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> This approach will also assure the guide dog program that
> >>>>>>>>>the student is up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable
> >>>>>>>>>of transferring them to the use of a dog. Students that
> >>>>>>>>>successfully complete the cane travel component of their
> >>>>>>>>>immersion training would be eligible to receive a dog.
> >>>>>>>>> This
> >>>>>>>>> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
> >>>>>>>>>other aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted
> >>>>>>>>>time students often experience when at guide dog training
> >> facilities.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required
> >>>>>>>>> to wear sleep shades as they do when taking other center
> >>>>>>>>> classes and participating in designated center activities.
> >>>>>>>>> Like students who undergo cane travel instruction at our
> >>>>>>>>> centers those training with dogs would be encouraged to travel
> >>>>>>>>> on their own prior to completion of the training. In the
> >>>>>>>>> beginning they could be accompanied by an experienced guide dog
> >>>>>>>>> user/trainer but would be expected to travel and complete "Monster
> > Routes"
> >>>>>>>>> entirely on their own using their dogs.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it
> >>>>>>>>> would operate similar to those of current guide dog programs.
> >>>>>>>>> The program would operate its own breeding component or obtain
> >>>>>>>>> suitable dogs from donations. The usual period of
> >>>>>>>>> socialization and puppy raising wouldn't be that much different
> >>>>>>>>> than is done by current guide dog programs. The dogs would
> >>>>>>>>> return for a period of training when they're taught how to
> >>>>>>>>> guide a blind person. Once the dogs are ready to be pared with
> >>>>>>>>> their future blind owner they along with an instructor would be
> >>>>>>>>> sent to the center where the student receiving the dog will be
> > trained.
> >>>>>>>>> Alternatively the NFB guide dog program could operate from one
> >>>>>>>>> of our centers. Those wishing to obtain dogs once their
> >>>>>>>>> "Bootcamp"
> >>>>>>>>> training is complete would transfer to that center for training
> >>>>>>>>> with the dog. Using all ready existing facilities to house
> >>>>>>>>> students in training is one way to reduce the cost of training
> >>>>>>>>> guide
> >> dogs.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run
> >>>>>>>>> guide dog program could work but I'm sure others would have
> >>>>>>>>> additional ideas. If it's to happen at all the discussion must
> >>>>>>>>> continue at a cost of 0 to participants. All the best.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>>> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
> >>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold. First I
> >>>>>>>>>would like to see a more in depth background investigation of
> >>>>>>>>>the blind applicant. Do a criminal background check, require
> >>>>>>>>>more references, ask the neighbors...whatever it takes.
> >>>>>>>>>Adoption agencies place children into homes surely we can
> >>>>>>>>>figure out a way to more accurately know what sort of
> >>>>>>>>>situation the dog will be placed into.
> >>>>>>>>>Secondly, I think there are already agencies in place for
> >>>>>>>>>dealing with animal abuse, the police and animal control. I
> >>>>>>>>>don't see any reason why these agencies can't be used in cases
> >>>>>>>>>of neglect or abuse.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of
> >>>>>>>>>the dog in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid
> >> point.
> >>>>>>>>>We
> >>>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>> to stop expecting everything for nothing. I like the Seeing
> >>>>>>>>>Eye's concept of charging the student. I do wish that the cost
> >>>>>>>>>had increased over the years with the cost of living. It has
> >>>>>>>>>been $150 since the beginning of the school in 1928. I think
> >>>>>>>>>that's the right year.
> >>>>>>>>> $150
> >>>>>>>>> was a very different sum of money then and now.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
> >>>>>>>>> substantially lower sums of money than $60,000. If you look at
> >>>>>>>>> the various guide dog programs and how much each claims it
> >>>>>>>>> costs to train a dog, the numbers vary widely. All those
> >>>>>>>>> buildings, fancy food, excessive equipment and other niceties cost
> > money.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Julie
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
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> >>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
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> >>>>>>>>>4
> >>>>>>>>> 0satx.rr.com
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
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> >>>>>>>>> verizon.net
> >>>>>>>>
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> >>>>>>>>
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> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
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> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>>>> %
> >>>>>>>> 40gma
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> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Cordially,
> >>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe, BA
> >>>>>>> cum laude Auburn University
> >>>>>>> e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
> >>>>>>> "If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for
> >>>>>>> anything"
> >>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe
> >>>>>>> "Stand up for your rights"
> >>>>>>> Bob Marley
> >>>>>>>
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