[Blindtlk] Informed Choice Rules!!
Peter Donahue
pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com
Thu Mar 21 18:55:45 UTC 2013
Hello Kelby and everyone,
Informed choice rules! If you want a structured-discovery guide dog
training experience be prepared to make the extra time commitment and if
necessary be prepared to help cover the cost. For some individuals it would
be exactly what they'd want particularly if they can obtain blindness
training in other areas while training with their dog. This would be yet
another option for obtaining a guide dog along with its minuses and plusses.
Let me remind you. Informed choice rules!
Peter Donahue
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carlson" <kelbycarlson at gmail.com>
To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
In my experience, a fully structure-discovery program with a dog
would take quite a bit more time. This would more likely than
not increase the costs even more substantially. Particularly in
the situation I'm in (a large college campus) a structured
discovery method wouldn't even work particularly well in our
situation.
I am still baffled as to why their is so much anger over the
ownership policy. While the blind person's rights are important,
there has been a great deal of time and money invested in each
dog. It seems reasonable that ownership is withheld for a
certain amount of time. This
can work in the interest of the user as well-it can sometimes
take more than the training period discover that a guide dog is
not going to work in one's situation.
Kelby
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com
To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 12:17:22 -0500
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
Hello Bryan and everyone,
Too often the dog's rights trump those of its blind owner.The
Seeing Eye
not withstanding these so-called "Ownership policies" of guide
dog schools
are nothing but a joke! Training one's own dog is definitely n
option if one
has the time and resources to put towards it but for others a
quality guide
dog program that employs the NFB philosophy and the
Structured-Discovery
Immersion Training Model would be very much desired. If you're
happy with
your current guide dog school there's nothing to stop you from
returning to
them for subsequent dogs but for God's sake get behind an effort
to bring
the kind of guide dog training program wanted by some guide dog
users in to
existence!
Peter Donahue
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Miller" <brianrmiller88 at gmail.com
To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
Hi all,
I certainly respect anyone's choice of guide dog schools, but I
would not
equate this issue to that of sheltered workshops.
I don't know about all of the schools, and I very much appreciate
that many
schools have been bastions of negative attitudes about blindness.
My understanding is, however, that at least in the case of Guide
Dogs for
the Blind in San Rafael, California, you have the option to take
full
ownership of your dog after one year. I know some will see this
as still
too paternalistic, and I respect that, but I think it's also
important to
recognize that this isn't just about the blind person, but about
the dogs.
Schools like Guide Dogs invest tens of thousands of dollars in
raising ,
training, and supporting the dogs and their handlers. They have
a interest
in ensuring that this investment is maximized, and also to ensure
that the
dogs are well cared for.
Blind people get the dogs and the training for free -- if we are
so
insistent on full and outright ownership of the dogs, should we
also not
accept the full cost of the dog's training? I suspect this is
far beyond
the ability of most blind people to manage.
Guide Dogs also provides a lot of follow-up care, including the
paying of
most vet bills, which runs hundreds of dollars every year.
The follow-up visits are more than just check-ins, but training
opportunities. I think it's a matter of perspective as to how
intrusive or
even oppressive these visits are.
I think it would be interesting to know how many dogs are taken
away from
their handlers. I suspect that the number is very small, but
still it's
worth knowing to get a sense of the scope of the issue.
I think it's one thing to talk of ownership, but another thing to
take on
the full cost of doing so, or the full cost of running such an
operation
ourselves. I certainly would want as many blind people in charge
of guide
dog schools as possible, assuming they have the management skills
to do so,
and I recognize that far too many schools see their work as
charity not
empowerment of blind people, but this is not the case of all
schools, and
Seeing Eye isn't the only school trying to balance the needs of
the blind
person and the dog and the community.
I'm not a dog user, but I still felt compelled to offer some
thoughts for
what they are worth -- thanks!.
Respectfully,
Brian Miller
-----Original Message-----
From: blind [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Danielle Antoine
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 3:03 AM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
Peter, Amen and Hallelujah! the seeing Eye's policies just
fit my personal philosophy. It is why after doing much
extensive research and consideration I always go back to TSE!
I view the ownership and mandatory follow-ups by most of the
schools as degrading and akin to workshop pay. something is
wrong with this lack of trust in in the quality they put out.
graduates should be treated as the grown adults they are not
as grade-schoolers where ththey must be checked up on and
graded so to speak. TSE never ever checks up on its grad and
they only come when and if you ever need them....providing
honest and fair assessments. Only way I'll ever go anywhere
else is if they should ever refuse me service or my health
requirements dictate.
Sometimes, circumstances beyond our control interferes with a
team and shortens the working relationship and that should be
taken into consideration by the schools retaining ownership.
JMO and personal experience!
On 12/16/12, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
Money money money!
-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Diane
Graves
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 11:13 AM
To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
Now that would be a good idea. After all, we have a strong
O&M program
run by our own for cane users. Why *not* have a guide dog
program? I
like that idea.
Diane Graves
-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Peter
Donahue
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 1:49 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
Good afternoon everyone,
I'm increasingly becoming convinced that some of this
misunderstanding is being generated by our own guide dog
users and not
just those outside the federation. This came clear to me
judging from
the reactions of those attending this year's NAGDU Meeting
in Dallas
last summer concerning several issues being discussed.
For years the NFB has been trying to convince guide dog
schools to
end the practice of retaining ownership of their dogs and adopt
a
policy similar to that of The Seeing Eye. Put simply as Lucas
Frank
said last summer "We have no (Ownership policy)! When students
complete training they leave the school with their dog and it is
there's."We also know that a number of schools that retain
ownership
have wrongfully taken dogs from their handlers with no
explaination of
why. We just picketted Amazon last Wednesday. I'll retract
this belief
concerning the use of guide dogs when NAGDU organizes
pickets of guide
dog programs that wrongfully take dogs from their blind handlers
to
bring public awareness to this shabby practice.
Likewise I worked with several NAGDU Members to
craft a "Guide
Dog consumer Bill of Rights." During the NAGDU meeting
schools at the
convention were asked to indicate whether or not they would
"Sign on"
and recognize the rights of the blind consumers they serve.
Some
refused to comment. Others side-stepped the issue all together
and
still others wanted to "Negotiate."
I shure hope we don't go down the negotiation path and allow
these
outfits to water down this document. As far as I know not one
guide
dog program has signed on to the Guide Dog Consumer Bill of
Rights.
Going back to the matter of ownership retention when Marion
Gwizdala and a few others spoke out strongly against the beliefs
of
guide dog programs that ownership was necessary pittifully few
in
attendence applauded. Yet these same people joind others to
help bring
the house down when it came to cheering on those that spoke in
opposition to the continued payment of subminamum wages to
blind shop
workers! If you asked me something is very wrong with that
picture!
If the NFB was more agressive in addressing these
matters we would
be more visible and people would know that we do indeed
recognize
one's choice to use a guide dog for independent travel and
are a force
in the affairs of guide dog users. If folks find this
offensive I'll
gladly retrack what I said when the following conditions are
met:
1. Greater publicity is given to the practice of ownership
retention
of dogs by guide dog schools.
2. All schools recognize the NFB'S Guide Dog Consumer Bill
of Rights
as it was originally drafted.
3. More is done to urge all guide dog programs to employ
blind persons
as guide dog trainers and class instructors.
4. (This is the big one.) We entertain discussion
concerning the NFB'S
establishing its own guide dog program; a program operated by
guide
dog users for guide dog users!
I have repeatedly suggested such a discussion to President
Gwizddala but to date it has not been an item for discussion
during
the NAGDU Meeting.
If there are still folks that think we're anty guide
dog we should
look within our organization to see if there are actions
and lack of
actions that are still perpetuating this myth. Persuing
more agressive
solutions to the issues I've discussed above could put us
further down
the road to ending this misunderstanding. All the best.
Peter Donahue
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