[Blindtlk] Informed Choice Rules!!

kelby carlson kelbycarlson at gmail.com
Thu Mar 21 21:28:55 UTC 2013


That's not "informed choice." That's "do it our way or nothing."
That's about as far from choice as it's possible to get.



On 3/21/13, Peter Donahue <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> Hello Kelby and everyone,
>
>     Informed choice rules! If you want a structured-discovery guide dog
> training experience be prepared to make the extra time commitment and if
> necessary be prepared to help cover the cost. For some individuals it would
>
> be exactly what they'd want particularly if they can obtain blindness
> training in other areas while training with their dog. This would be yet
> another option for obtaining a guide dog along with its minuses and plusses.
>
> Let me remind you. Informed choice rules!
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carlson" <kelbycarlson at gmail.com>
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 12:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>
>
> In my experience, a fully structure-discovery program with a dog
> would take quite a bit more time.  This would more likely than
> not increase the costs even more substantially.  Particularly in
> the situation I'm in (a large college campus) a structured
> discovery method wouldn't even work particularly well in our
> situation.
>
> I am still baffled as to why their is so much anger over the
> ownership policy.  While the blind person's rights are important,
> there has been a great deal of time and money invested in each
> dog.  It seems reasonable that ownership is withheld for a
> certain amount of time.  This
> can work in the interest of the user as well-it can sometimes
> take more than the training period discover that a guide dog is
> not going to work in one's situation.
> Kelby
>
>
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 12:17:22 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>
> Hello Bryan and everyone,
>
>     Too often the dog's rights trump those of its blind owner.The
> Seeing Eye
> not withstanding these so-called "Ownership policies" of guide
> dog schools
> are nothing but a joke! Training one's own dog is definitely n
> option if one
> has the time and resources to put towards it but for others a
> quality guide
> dog program that employs the NFB philosophy and the
> Structured-Discovery
> Immersion Training Model would be very much desired.  If you're
> happy with
> your current guide dog school there's nothing to stop you from
> returning to
> them for subsequent dogs but for God's sake get behind an effort
> to bring
> the kind of guide dog training program wanted by some guide dog
> users in to
> existence!
>
>  Peter Donahue
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian Miller" <brianrmiller88 at gmail.com
> To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 6:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I certainly respect anyone's choice of guide dog schools, but I
> would not
> equate this issue to that of sheltered workshops.
>
> I don't know about all of the schools, and I very much appreciate
> that many
> schools have been bastions of negative attitudes about blindness.
>
> My understanding is, however, that at least in the case of Guide
> Dogs for
> the Blind in San Rafael, California, you have the option to take
> full
> ownership of your dog after one year.  I know some will see this
> as still
> too paternalistic, and I respect that, but I think it's also
> important to
> recognize that this isn't just about the blind person, but about
> the dogs.
> Schools like Guide Dogs invest tens of thousands of dollars in
> raising ,
> training, and supporting the dogs and their handlers.  They have
> a interest
> in ensuring that this investment is maximized, and also to ensure
> that the
> dogs are well cared for.
>
> Blind people get the dogs and the training for free -- if we are
> so
> insistent on full and outright ownership of the dogs, should we
> also not
> accept the full cost of the dog's training?  I suspect this is
> far beyond
> the ability of most blind people to manage.
>
> Guide Dogs also provides a lot of follow-up care, including the
> paying of
> most vet bills, which runs hundreds of dollars every year.
>
> The follow-up visits are more than just check-ins, but training
> opportunities.  I think it's a matter of perspective as to how
> intrusive or
> even oppressive these visits are.
>
> I think it would be interesting to know how many dogs are taken
> away from
> their handlers.  I suspect that the number is very small, but
> still it's
> worth knowing to get a sense of the scope of the issue.
>
> I think it's one thing to talk of ownership, but another thing to
> take on
> the full cost of doing so, or the full cost of running such an
> operation
> ourselves.  I certainly would want as many blind people in charge
> of guide
> dog schools as possible, assuming they have the management skills
> to do so,
> and I recognize that far too many schools see their work as
> charity not
> empowerment of blind people, but this is not the case of all
> schools, and
> Seeing Eye isn't the only school trying to balance the needs of
> the blind
> person and the dog and the community.
>
> I'm not a dog user, but I still felt compelled to offer some
> thoughts for
> what they are worth -- thanks!.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Brian Miller
>
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: blind [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>  Of Danielle Antoine
>  Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 3:03 AM
>  To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>  Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>
>  Peter, Amen and Hallelujah! the seeing Eye's policies just
>  fit my personal philosophy.  It is why after doing much
>  extensive research and consideration I always go back to TSE!
>  I view the ownership and mandatory follow-ups by most of the
>  schools as degrading and akin to workshop pay.  something is
>  wrong with this lack of trust in in the quality they put out.
>  graduates should be treated as the grown adults they are not
>  as grade-schoolers where ththey must be checked up on and
>  graded so to speak.  TSE never ever checks up on its grad and
>  they only come when and if you ever need them....providing
>  honest and fair assessments.  Only way I'll ever go anywhere
>  else is if they should ever refuse me service or my health
>  requirements dictate.
>
>  Sometimes, circumstances beyond our control interferes with a
>  team and shortens the working relationship and that should be
>  taken into consideration by the schools retaining ownership.
>  JMO and personal experience!
>
>  On 12/16/12, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>  Money money money!
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>  Behalf Of Diane
>  Graves
>  Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 11:13 AM
>  To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
>  Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>
>  Now that would be a good idea.  After all, we have a strong
>  O&M program
>  run by our own for cane users.  Why *not* have a guide dog
>  program? I
>  like that idea.
>
>  Diane Graves
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>  Behalf Of Peter
>  Donahue
>  Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 1:49 PM
>  To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>  Subject: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>
>  Good afternoon everyone,
>
>      I'm increasingly becoming convinced that some of this
>  misunderstanding is being generated by our own guide dog
>  users and not
>  just those outside the federation.  This came clear to me
>  judging from
>  the reactions of those attending this year's NAGDU Meeting
>  in Dallas
>  last summer concerning several issues being discussed.
>      For years the NFB has been trying to convince guide dog
>  schools to
>  end the practice of retaining ownership of their dogs and adopt
> a
>  policy similar to that of The Seeing Eye.  Put simply as Lucas
> Frank
>  said last summer "We have no (Ownership policy)! When students
>  complete training they leave the school with their dog and it is
>  there's."We also know that a number of schools that retain
>  ownership
>  have wrongfully taken dogs from their handlers with no
>  explaination of
>  why.  We just picketted Amazon last Wednesday.  I'll retract
>  this belief
>  concerning the use of guide dogs when NAGDU organizes
>  pickets of guide
>  dog programs that wrongfully take dogs from their blind handlers
> to
>  bring public awareness to this shabby practice.
>
>          Likewise I worked with several NAGDU Members to
>  craft a "Guide
>  Dog consumer Bill of Rights." During the NAGDU meeting
>  schools at the
>  convention were asked to indicate whether or not they would
>  "Sign on"
>  and recognize the rights of the blind consumers they serve.
> Some
>  refused to comment.  Others side-stepped the issue all together
> and
>  still others wanted to "Negotiate."
>
>  I shure hope we don't go down the negotiation path and allow
> these
>  outfits to water down this document.  As far as I know not one
> guide
>  dog program has signed on to the Guide Dog Consumer Bill of
> Rights.
>
>      Going back to the matter of ownership retention when Marion
>  Gwizdala and a few others spoke out strongly against the beliefs
> of
>  guide dog programs that ownership was necessary pittifully few
> in
>  attendence applauded.  Yet these same people joind others to
>  help bring
>  the house down when it came to cheering on those that spoke in
>  opposition to the continued payment of subminamum wages to
>  blind shop
>  workers! If you asked me something is very wrong with that
> picture!
>
>      If the NFB was more agressive in addressing these
>  matters we would
>  be more visible and people would know that we do indeed
> recognize
>  one's choice to use a guide dog for independent travel and
>  are a force
>  in the affairs of guide dog users.  If folks find this
>  offensive I'll
>  gladly retrack what I said when the following conditions are
> met:
>
>  1.  Greater publicity is given to the practice of ownership
>  retention
>  of dogs by guide dog schools.
>  2.  All schools recognize the NFB'S Guide Dog Consumer Bill
>  of Rights
>  as it was originally drafted.
>  3.  More is done to urge all guide dog programs to employ
>  blind persons
>  as guide dog trainers and class instructors.
>  4.  (This is the big one.) We entertain discussion
>  concerning the NFB'S
>  establishing its own guide dog program; a program operated by
> guide
>  dog users for guide dog users!
>
>      I have repeatedly suggested such a discussion to President
>  Gwizddala but to date it has not been an item for discussion
> during
>  the NAGDU Meeting.
>
>      If there are still folks that think we're anty guide
>  dog we should
>  look within our organization to see if there are actions
>  and lack of
>  actions that are still perpetuating this myth.  Persuing
>  more agressive
>  solutions to the issues I've discussed above could put us
>  further down
>  the road to ending this misunderstanding.  All the best.
>
>
>  Peter Donahue
>
>
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