[Blindtlk] Informed Choice Rules!!
Peter Donahue
pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com
Thu Mar 21 22:55:08 UTC 2013
Hello Kelby and folks,
No it's this is required if you're to obtain a dog from us.Again
informed choice rules!
Peter Donahue
----- Original Message -----
From: "kelby carlson" <kelbycarlson at gmail.com>
To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Informed Choice Rules!!
That's not "informed choice." That's "do it our way or nothing."
That's about as far from choice as it's possible to get.
On 3/21/13, Peter Donahue <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> Hello Kelby and everyone,
>
> Informed choice rules! If you want a structured-discovery guide dog
> training experience be prepared to make the extra time commitment and if
> necessary be prepared to help cover the cost. For some individuals it
> would
>
> be exactly what they'd want particularly if they can obtain blindness
> training in other areas while training with their dog. This would be yet
> another option for obtaining a guide dog along with its minuses and
> plusses.
>
> Let me remind you. Informed choice rules!
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carlson" <kelbycarlson at gmail.com>
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 12:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>
>
> In my experience, a fully structure-discovery program with a dog
> would take quite a bit more time. This would more likely than
> not increase the costs even more substantially. Particularly in
> the situation I'm in (a large college campus) a structured
> discovery method wouldn't even work particularly well in our
> situation.
>
> I am still baffled as to why their is so much anger over the
> ownership policy. While the blind person's rights are important,
> there has been a great deal of time and money invested in each
> dog. It seems reasonable that ownership is withheld for a
> certain amount of time. This
> can work in the interest of the user as well-it can sometimes
> take more than the training period discover that a guide dog is
> not going to work in one's situation.
> Kelby
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 12:17:22 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>
> Hello Bryan and everyone,
>
> Too often the dog's rights trump those of its blind owner.The
> Seeing Eye
> not withstanding these so-called "Ownership policies" of guide
> dog schools
> are nothing but a joke! Training one's own dog is definitely n
> option if one
> has the time and resources to put towards it but for others a
> quality guide
> dog program that employs the NFB philosophy and the
> Structured-Discovery
> Immersion Training Model would be very much desired. If you're
> happy with
> your current guide dog school there's nothing to stop you from
> returning to
> them for subsequent dogs but for God's sake get behind an effort
> to bring
> the kind of guide dog training program wanted by some guide dog
> users in to
> existence!
>
> Peter Donahue
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian Miller" <brianrmiller88 at gmail.com
> To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 6:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I certainly respect anyone's choice of guide dog schools, but I
> would not
> equate this issue to that of sheltered workshops.
>
> I don't know about all of the schools, and I very much appreciate
> that many
> schools have been bastions of negative attitudes about blindness.
>
> My understanding is, however, that at least in the case of Guide
> Dogs for
> the Blind in San Rafael, California, you have the option to take
> full
> ownership of your dog after one year. I know some will see this
> as still
> too paternalistic, and I respect that, but I think it's also
> important to
> recognize that this isn't just about the blind person, but about
> the dogs.
> Schools like Guide Dogs invest tens of thousands of dollars in
> raising ,
> training, and supporting the dogs and their handlers. They have
> a interest
> in ensuring that this investment is maximized, and also to ensure
> that the
> dogs are well cared for.
>
> Blind people get the dogs and the training for free -- if we are
> so
> insistent on full and outright ownership of the dogs, should we
> also not
> accept the full cost of the dog's training? I suspect this is
> far beyond
> the ability of most blind people to manage.
>
> Guide Dogs also provides a lot of follow-up care, including the
> paying of
> most vet bills, which runs hundreds of dollars every year.
>
> The follow-up visits are more than just check-ins, but training
> opportunities. I think it's a matter of perspective as to how
> intrusive or
> even oppressive these visits are.
>
> I think it would be interesting to know how many dogs are taken
> away from
> their handlers. I suspect that the number is very small, but
> still it's
> worth knowing to get a sense of the scope of the issue.
>
> I think it's one thing to talk of ownership, but another thing to
> take on
> the full cost of doing so, or the full cost of running such an
> operation
> ourselves. I certainly would want as many blind people in charge
> of guide
> dog schools as possible, assuming they have the management skills
> to do so,
> and I recognize that far too many schools see their work as
> charity not
> empowerment of blind people, but this is not the case of all
> schools, and
> Seeing Eye isn't the only school trying to balance the needs of
> the blind
> person and the dog and the community.
>
> I'm not a dog user, but I still felt compelled to offer some
> thoughts for
> what they are worth -- thanks!.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Brian Miller
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blind [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Danielle Antoine
> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 3:03 AM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>
> Peter, Amen and Hallelujah! the seeing Eye's policies just
> fit my personal philosophy. It is why after doing much
> extensive research and consideration I always go back to TSE!
> I view the ownership and mandatory follow-ups by most of the
> schools as degrading and akin to workshop pay. something is
> wrong with this lack of trust in in the quality they put out.
> graduates should be treated as the grown adults they are not
> as grade-schoolers where ththey must be checked up on and
> graded so to speak. TSE never ever checks up on its grad and
> they only come when and if you ever need them....providing
> honest and fair assessments. Only way I'll ever go anywhere
> else is if they should ever refuse me service or my health
> requirements dictate.
>
> Sometimes, circumstances beyond our control interferes with a
> team and shortens the working relationship and that should be
> taken into consideration by the schools retaining ownership.
> JMO and personal experience!
>
> On 12/16/12, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
> Money money money!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Diane
> Graves
> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 11:13 AM
> To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>
> Now that would be a good idea. After all, we have a strong
> O&M program
> run by our own for cane users. Why *not* have a guide dog
> program? I
> like that idea.
>
> Diane Graves
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Peter
> Donahue
> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 1:49 PM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>
> Good afternoon everyone,
>
> I'm increasingly becoming convinced that some of this
> misunderstanding is being generated by our own guide dog
> users and not
> just those outside the federation. This came clear to me
> judging from
> the reactions of those attending this year's NAGDU Meeting
> in Dallas
> last summer concerning several issues being discussed.
> For years the NFB has been trying to convince guide dog
> schools to
> end the practice of retaining ownership of their dogs and adopt
> a
> policy similar to that of The Seeing Eye. Put simply as Lucas
> Frank
> said last summer "We have no (Ownership policy)! When students
> complete training they leave the school with their dog and it is
> there's."We also know that a number of schools that retain
> ownership
> have wrongfully taken dogs from their handlers with no
> explaination of
> why. We just picketted Amazon last Wednesday. I'll retract
> this belief
> concerning the use of guide dogs when NAGDU organizes
> pickets of guide
> dog programs that wrongfully take dogs from their blind handlers
> to
> bring public awareness to this shabby practice.
>
> Likewise I worked with several NAGDU Members to
> craft a "Guide
> Dog consumer Bill of Rights." During the NAGDU meeting
> schools at the
> convention were asked to indicate whether or not they would
> "Sign on"
> and recognize the rights of the blind consumers they serve.
> Some
> refused to comment. Others side-stepped the issue all together
> and
> still others wanted to "Negotiate."
>
> I shure hope we don't go down the negotiation path and allow
> these
> outfits to water down this document. As far as I know not one
> guide
> dog program has signed on to the Guide Dog Consumer Bill of
> Rights.
>
> Going back to the matter of ownership retention when Marion
> Gwizdala and a few others spoke out strongly against the beliefs
> of
> guide dog programs that ownership was necessary pittifully few
> in
> attendence applauded. Yet these same people joind others to
> help bring
> the house down when it came to cheering on those that spoke in
> opposition to the continued payment of subminamum wages to
> blind shop
> workers! If you asked me something is very wrong with that
> picture!
>
> If the NFB was more agressive in addressing these
> matters we would
> be more visible and people would know that we do indeed
> recognize
> one's choice to use a guide dog for independent travel and
> are a force
> in the affairs of guide dog users. If folks find this
> offensive I'll
> gladly retrack what I said when the following conditions are
> met:
>
> 1. Greater publicity is given to the practice of ownership
> retention
> of dogs by guide dog schools.
> 2. All schools recognize the NFB'S Guide Dog Consumer Bill
> of Rights
> as it was originally drafted.
> 3. More is done to urge all guide dog programs to employ
> blind persons
> as guide dog trainers and class instructors.
> 4. (This is the big one.) We entertain discussion
> concerning the NFB'S
> establishing its own guide dog program; a program operated by
> guide
> dog users for guide dog users!
>
> I have repeatedly suggested such a discussion to President
> Gwizddala but to date it has not been an item for discussion
> during
> the NAGDU Meeting.
>
> If there are still folks that think we're anty guide
> dog we should
> look within our organization to see if there are actions
> and lack of
> actions that are still perpetuating this myth. Persuing
> more agressive
> solutions to the issues I've discussed above could put us
> further down
> the road to ending this misunderstanding. All the best.
>
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
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