[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?

Thu Mar 21 18:18:18 UTC 2013

With local training, it just depends on context, and how good your
instructor is.  That's all.  

-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
Jacobson
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:54 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?

Kelby,

Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive answer.  I can
only tell you that I received training before there were NFB centers and I
have been a reasonably successful traveler and have generally managed my
life successfully.  However, in the work I have done with BLIND
Incorporated, I see that there are things I missed when I was trained.  I
think I have picked up much of what I missed primarily because of my
association with others in the Federation.  It has more to do with being
confident enough to try new situations and knowing that I'll figure them out
even if I don't know exactly how at the start, and less to do with how many
inches I swing my cane left and right.  In my opinion, and you may see this
as a cop-out, it has less to do with comparing the quality of one's travel
skills and more to do with whether one actually gets out and travels.  These
are not easy things to measure.  

I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the past, but I
don't know how well you travel, for example.  What I do know is that most of
us are affected by the general attitudes that surround us in a way that is
hard to measure.  Even though we have some idea of what our capabilities
are, unless we are exceptionally confident, we are going to tend to believe
it if we are uncertain how we would accomplish a given thing and someone
tells us we can't do it.  I believe there was a time when there was a clear
dividing line between NFB training centers and many other centers.  We
believed that we have to affect one's attitude toward blindness and oneself
while most other centers believed that they need to concentrate on teaching
techniques.  The common belief among some other centers was that changing
attitudes toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was outside of
their mandate.

Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that there is a
more general acceptance of the notion that one's belief in oneself is
probably as important as the techniques used so some of the lines are not as
clear as they once were.  Still, I am skeptical of how well attitudes can be
changed in a couple of months, but of course, it depends some upon the
starting point of the individual.  

It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not all good
travelers.  The person making the observation, who shall remain nameless,
said that they felt a need to jump in and help but there were too many
people to try to help all at once.  
However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people were getting
where they needed to go without assistance, and that what appeared to be
potentially frustrating to an observer was not the case for the traveler.
This isn't meant to diminish the role of good travel techniques, only to
make the point that there is more to travel than techniques.  Having said
all this, though, I also believe that what we have come to call structured
discovery is a valid difference in how one learns to travel.  In some ways,
it takes longer to learn but provides a better base from which to work.
Some of us who did not attend NFB training centers have adopted this
approach on our own to some degree, but we would probably have adopted it
more easily having had training in an NFB center.  

I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.  Often, you
start rejecting a position that some of us have taken.  
Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem to be more
open to the possibility that there are sometimes reasons for positions we
might have taken.  I won't bore you with the details of the time I almost
missed a flight because I allowed myself to be talked into waiting for a
cart, only to have one not be available for close to an hour, and how the
airline employee refused to tell me which gate I needed to get to.  Anyway,
some of what you are hearing here would have been a part of your training at
an NFB Center.  You would likely have been given the chance to interact
personally with people who had similar experiences so that you could ask
them questions.  You can get some of this information here, of course, but
what about the many experiences that are not discussed?

Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one another.  My
goal is not to convince you how bad your training was, because it might be
all right.  I feel pretty certain that there are things you didn't get that
you would have gotten had you spent time in one of our centers as indicated
above, but I don't really think that is the point.  The point is how can we
help you now and how can you help us and other blind people?  Are there
things you are not comfortable doing that perhaps someone else here is
comfortable doing?  We could even explore here some of the things that many
of us have overcome as a result of the encouragement from others.

Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly as I see
them, isn't that always true?  In the end, though, I don't care that much
whether you believe there is a difference in training centers or not.  I
care more that you have what you need to get a job when you get out of
college and that you are able to live as full a life as you can live, and I
believe there are ways we can help you do that.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:

>I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from federationists-that my 
>local training simply must have been far, far inferior to anything the 
>NFB has.  I have as of yet seen no actual compelling evidence for this 
>claim, and no one I know well in the NFB has offered me convincing 
>reasons as to why the training I have is bad.  (Those who don't know me 
>can't offer any reasons, as they don't know my context.) If NFB 
>mobility is so wonderful, I wish they would allow people interested to 
>pay for a little instruction to get a sense of their methodology in 
>real space time rather than forcing people to commit to six to nine 
>months.

>Kelby

> ----- Original Message -----
>From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
>To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 21 Mar 
>2013 23:56:35 -0400
>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario

>Well we all need good mobility skills.  A dog is not a replacement for 
>mobility skills.  Whether you use a cane, sighted guide, or a guide 
>dog.
>If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get locally 
>then you don't know what you are missing.
>Never going to them myself.  I have seen what someone with no knowledge 
>of any of the services or very little in there own areas, and come back 
>from our schools with the confidence and the mobility and the other 
>services that are given there.
>If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's 
>philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and then a 
>dog.  I have not been blind all my life.  I lost my vision as an adult, 
>and I learned the mobility and cane skills, my dog doesn't know when to 
>cross the street, I have to give him the direction to do so.
>Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to mention 
>when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will either not want 
>to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or in between a dog, or 
>whatever the issues are.  That I know the skills to get me where I want 
>to go whether it is with my Maxx or not.
>Have a great night all.
>Take care and god bless.
>Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with kindness to 
>one another; and with the philosophy of the great organization.
>Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism

>Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the Way in 
>Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel Advocate!Cheryl 
>Echevarria, 
>Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
>varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
>Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
>Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST - 
>#1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National 
>Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser for the 
>http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other resources.  Any 
>vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6, 2013 and 
>vacation must be traveled no later than
>12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.  
>Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families and 
>friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the affiliate 
>as well.  You do not need to be a member of the NFB.org, just book 
>through us.

> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
> From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible 
>Scenario

> I'll echo what Cindysaid.  There isno way I would give up that
> much time for mobility training I already had purely for the
> purpose of getting a dog.  ZPeter said, I would go somewhere 
>else
> straightaway.

> Kelby

>  ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible 
>Scenario

> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a
> real lack of
> quality training for blind people.  I don't really think that's
> the case
> with guide schools.  There are some schools which do things
> differently from
> others.  But, there are people who prefer one approach over
> another.  I
> don't really think that NFB needs to get involved with guide dog
> training.

> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the 
>nine
> month NFB
> center training, first, this will severely limit the number of
> people
> choosing to have training from an NFB guide dog school, should
> one be
> started.  I don't know to many people who can give up a year of
> their life
> to get a guide dog.

> Cindy

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Donahue
> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario

> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
>     Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the
> past so she
> knows where I'm coming from.  In line with her comments below 
>I'd
> like to
> suggest a possible scenario for an NFB-run guide dog program:

>         Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment
> centers for
> blind adults and youth there would be no need for a facility for
> housing
> students in training to be constructed.  Hold on folks.  
>Students
> wishing to
> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
> complete the
> 6-9 month program at one of the centers.  During the student's
> "Bootcamp
> training" the center has an opportunity to come to know the
> student
> inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of background
> information on the
> applicant to the guide dog unit.  Unlike current guide dog
> programs that must
> rely on references and other information that may be true or
> false the NFB
> guide dog program will have all ready had accurate information
> gathered for
> them by the training center and can be assured that the 
>applicant
> is a
> suitable candidate for a dog.

>     This approach will also assure the guide dog program that 
>the
> student is
> up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable of transferring
> them to the
> use of a dog.  Students that successfully complete the cane
> travel component
> of their immersion training would be eligible to receive a dog.
> This
> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
> other
> aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted time
> students
> often experience when at guide dog training facilities.

>     Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required
> to wear
> sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes and
> participating
> in designated center activities.  Like students who undergo cane
> travel
> instruction at our centers those training with dogs would be
> encouraged to
> travel on their own prior to completion of the training.  In the
> beginning
> they could be accompanied by an experienced guide dog
> user/trainer but would
> be expected to travel and complete "Monster Routes" entirely on
> their own
> using their dogs.

>     As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would
> operate
> similar to those of current guide dog programs.  The program
> would operate
> its own breeding component or obtain suitable dogs from
> donations.  The usual
> period of socialization and puppy raising wouldn't be that much
> different
> than is done by current guide dog programs.  The dogs would
> return for a
> period of training when they're taught how to guide a blind
> person.  Once the
> dogs are ready to be pared with their future blind owner they
> along with an
> instructor would be sent to the center where the student
> receiving the dog
> will be trained.  Alternatively the NFB guide dog program could
> operate from
> one of our centers.  Those wishing to obtain dogs once their
> "Bootcamp"
> training is complete would transfer to that center for training
> with the
> dog.  Using all ready existing facilities to house students in
> training is
> one way to reduce the cost of training guide dogs.

>     The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run
> guide dog
> program could work but I'm sure others would have additional
> ideas.  If it's
> to happen at all the discussion must continue at a cost of 0 to
> participants.  All the best.

> Peter Donahue

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup

> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold.  First I
> would
> like to see a more in depth background investigation of the 
>blind
> applicant.  Do a criminal background check, require more
> references, ask
> the neighbors...whatever it takes.  Adoption agencies place
> children
> into homes surely we can figure out a way to more accurately 
>know
> what
> sort of situation the dog will be placed into.  Secondly, I 
>think
> there
> are already agencies in place for dealing with animal abuse, the
> police
> and animal control.  I don't see any reason why these agencies
> can't be
> used in cases of neglect or abuse.

> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of
> the dog
> in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid point.  
>We
> have
> to stop expecting everything for nothing.  I like the Seeing
> Eye's
> concept of charging the student.  I do wish that the cost had
> increased
> over the years with the cost of living.  It has been $150 since
> the
> beginning of the school in 1928.  I think that's the right year.
> $150
> was a very different sum of money then and now.

> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
> substantially
> lower sums of money than $60,000.  If you look at the various
> guide dog
> programs and how much each claims it costs to train a dog, the
> numbers
> vary widely.  All those buildings, fancy food, excessive
> equipment and
> other niceties cost money.

> Julie

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