[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?
Kelby Carlson
kelbycarlson at gmail.com
Sat Mar 23 04:52:02 UTC 2013
i can't speak for anyone else. The reason I stay is precisely
because of discussions like these: even if I disagree, I get to
analyze other positions, learn about experiences, and generally
come away a more intelligent, informed, confident and independent
individual.
Kelby
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com
To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 21:41:36 -0700
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
Centers or Not?
I'm afraid that I concur with you that almost *all* lists
generate far more
heat than light -- unless their moderators clamp down so hard
that the lists
become boring as hell!
But I confess to sometimes wondering why some individuals keep
reading our
lists when they find so much objectionable about us. And no,
this is not an
invitation to leave. It's just an expression, as King Mongkut
put it in "the
King and I", "is a puzzlement!".
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
Desiree
Oudinot
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 9:17 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
Centers or
Not?
Fair enough, Mike. I can understand where you're coming from.
To be
fair, and none of you guys would know this since you don't know
me
personally, I often use that phrase, stepping into the lion's
den,
when I sense that a topic is becoming heated. In my life, I have
rarely witnessed constructive debating or criticism. I always
associate disagreement with argument, which is not always the
case,
but that's just a bad habit of mine to say that particular phrase
because it is what i've personally felt like more often than not.
99%
of the time, it has absolutely nothing to do with the NFB, but
with
other situations that occur in my life.
Having said that, the incident I spoke of happened a few years
ago,
and I have since looked into various things to do with the NFB,
and
spoken to several members that I know. While I do feel that
several
things in the NFB's philosophy clash with me, I'm not going to
drag
them out on a public list. There would be no point in that,
since I've
already settled my disagreements in my own mind anyhow by
deciding not
to join.
On 3/22/13, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
Desiree:
With respect, although all of us must make generalizations from
that with
which we have had experience, it would seem just as unfair to
use such
loaded phrases as "the lions' den" to describe our discussions
as it is to
use unexamined the phraseology of NFB propaganda (and I think
there is no
dishonor in propaganda).
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
Desiree
Oudinot
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 4:27 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
Centers or
Not?
I concur with your assessment, but don't expect to get any
support
from NFB members. I give you props for willingly entering the
lion's
den, though.
On 3/22/13, kelby carlson <kelbycarlson at gmail.com> wrote:
My reservations are primarily attached to what I see as a "my
way or
the highway" mentality. Despite protestations to the contrary,
I get
the distinct feeling the NFB really believes it has found *the
way* of
understanding and living with blindness. While the NFB's
particular
methodology may work for some people--and has a good deal to
commend
it--it's just not something I'm comfortable embracing. I also
detect a
kind of insularity--a constant "looking in" if you will--that is
unhelpful. It's one thing to have a like-minded community, but
I
sometimes feel as if there is a kind of feeling of superiority
over
sighted people--or even non-Federationists! I have felt
distinctly out
of the loop and out of place at some NFB events because I wasn't
"plugged in", didn't know the lingo, and didn't have the kind of
personal history that most other federationists seem to have. I
cannot
use these experiences to discourage anyone from joining the NFB,
nor
do I wish to. As I said previously in this discussion, I am
uncomfortable with arguments based on anecdotal experience.
This,
then, is not an argument for or against the NFB--it probably
explains
more about me than the Federation. I hope that helps clarify a
little.
On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
A good soldier is not measured by how many bullets they fire,
but by
their dedication to the cause. And a warrior doesn't need to be
on the
battlefield to prove his worth to society.
On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
Be a warrior. Be on the frong lines.
-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
kelby
carlson
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:52 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
Centers
or
Not?
My perspective is similar to Desiree's. I have every intention
of
getting more involved in blindness advocacy in some way.
However, I
have reservations about all of the organizations there are.
(It's
totally possible those reservations will go away some day.) For
now, I
want to figure out what's going to work best for me as a blind
person
and do what I can individually to help others as well. There is
great
value in collectivity--no mistake--I'm just at a place where
that
isn't how I believe i can best function. I do hope to attend
the
convention one of these years, though, and my mind could
definitely
change!
I know I may come across sounding antagonistic toward the
Federation
at times. I need to work harder on moderating what I say and
how I say
it. But believe me when I say I see a ton of value in the
Federation
and a great deal that I like and agree with. Fundamentally, my
philosophy is very similar (I think) to the NFB philosophy. How
it is
worked out practically is sometimes where the rubber meets the
road.
On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
While I won't speak for Peter, I'll give my own perspective on
why I
choose not to join the NFB or ACB.
It's not about having a superiority complex. I don't consider
myself
to be better than anyone who is part of an organization.
however, I
like to draw my own conclusions, keeping politics and hidden
agendas
at arm's length. That's why my involvement only extends as far
as
listservs will take it. I feel that reading messages written by
individual members is a much more unbiased, not to mention
realistic
view, of how the members of each organization live, work and
interact
in day-to-day life. At a meeting or convention, there's the
expectation that one must carry themselves a certain way, say
the
right things, be inspired by all the right catch phrases.
That's not
limited to organizations for or of the blind, either, that's a
fact of
human nature. When you draw a large number of like-minded
individuals
together, and get them all to focus on one specific problem,
proposition, or what have you, the people will either put their
best
or worst foot forward collectively. There is little time for
individual thought processes, emotions, or personalities to take
root
and stand above the rest.
I am, by nature, very reserved, maybe I could even be classified
as a
loner in a lot of ways. As I said, I think and draw conclusions
best
when there are no distractions, no bells and whistles so to
speak. I
take what is important to me, what fits in with my values and
beliefs,
and apply it to how I live my life. I don't honestly feel that
I need
to belong to anything to find my purpose, nor should I be told
that I
have no purpose unless I'm at the forefront of every high and
low
point in the organization's history. I am content with this,
and I
feel that I have a right to speak out about it, since it's a
viewpoint
which most who hold it would probably not be comfortable
expressing
for fear of being blamed and shamed.
On 3/22/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
Hello, Peter. I have not followed this thread, but I have
looked at
one
or
two of your posts. I think it is a shame that you will not join
the
American Council of the Blind or the National Federation of the
Blind.
I
suppose you believe there is some kind of superiority in being
what
you
might call an independent. Perhaps you are right, but my own
life
experience indicates that having influence means joining with
others
of
like
mind, exploring how you can understand them and get them to
understand
you,
and then acting together in a concerted way to bring about the
better
world
we all say we want. One popular buzzword you can't help but
hear if
you
listen to five minutes of the news is the word infrastructure,
but
there
is
a lot to be said for having a way to effect the change we want.
For
me
this
is the National Federation of the Blind. For others it is the
American
Council of the Blind. Though the organizations may disagree
from
time
to
time, one thing most all of us share is that we have made a
commitment
to
blind people that extends beyond words. We are willing to put
our
time,
our
energy, and our money into helping you, whether or not you
appreciate
that
we do so or ever raise a finger to help us. Much distance
remains for
us
to
travel, and we certainly can use a willing hand at the oars.
Thanks
for
reading.
-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
Peter
Wolfe
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:52 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
Centers
or
Not?
In fact, the best method that anybody can teach you is
improvization
not
technique persay. It doesn't matter where you get any
information
from
on
these things whether NFB, ACB, AFB, Lion's Club's or wherever as
long
as
you
get whatever information. Make-up yoru own techniques and sell
a book
for
all I care as long as it works for you that is all that counts.
I
could
careless as logn as you share the information with fellow blind
individuals
that is my thhing that it shouldn't matter what special interest
group
that
your apart of cause we should all work together in dealing with
a
rotten
situation to make it better. By the way, I'm never going to be
part
of
NFB,
ACB, AFB or any of them.
sincerely,
Peter
On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
Kelby,
Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive
answer. I
can only tell you that I received training before there were NFB
centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler and
have
generally managed my life successfully. However, in the work I
have
done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there are things I
missed
when I was trained. I think I have picked up much of what I
missed
primarily because of my association with others in the
Federation.
It
has more to do with being confident enough to try new situations
and
knowing that I'll figure them out even if I don't know exactly
how
at
the start, and less to do with how many inches I swing my cane
left
and right. In my opinion, and you may see this as a cop-out, it
has
less to do with comparing the quality of one's travel skills and
more
to do with whether one actually gets out and travels. These are
not
easy things to measure.
I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the
past,
but I don't know how well you travel, for example. What I do
know
is
that most of us are affected by the general attitudes that
surround
us
in a way that is hard to measure. Even though we have some idea
of
what our capabilities are, unless we are exceptionally
confident, we
are going to tend to believe it if we are uncertain how we would
accomplish a given thing and someone tells us we can't do it. I
believe there was a time when there was a clear dividing line
between
NFB training centers and many other centers. We believed that
we
have
to affect one's attitude toward blindness and oneself while most
other
centers believed that they need to concentrate on teaching
techniques.
The common belief among some other centers was that changing
attitudes
toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was outside of
their
mandate.
Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that
there
is a more general acceptance of the notion that one's belief in
oneself is probably as important as the techniques used so some
of
the
lines are not as clear as they once were. Still, I am skeptical
of
how well attitudes can be changed in a couple of months, but of
course, it depends some upon the starting point of the
individual.
It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not
all
good travelers. The person making the observation, who shall
remain
nameless, said that they felt a need to jump in and help but
there
were too many people to try to help all at once.
However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people
were
getting where they needed to go without assistance, and that
what
appeared to be potentially frustrating to an observer was not
the
case
for the traveler. This isn't meant to diminish the role of good
travel techniques, only to make the point that there is more to
travel
than techniques. Having said all this, though, I also believe
that
what we have come to call structured discovery is a valid
difference
in how one learns to travel. In some ways, it takes longer to
learn
but provides a better base from which to work. Some of us who
did
not
attend NFB training centers have adopted this approach on our
own to
some degree, but we would probably have adopted it more easily
having
had training in an NFB center.
I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have
taken.
Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem to
be
more open to the possibility that there are sometimes reasons
for
positions we might have taken. I won't bore you with the
details of
the time I almost missed a flight because I allowed myself to be
talked into waiting for a cart, only to have one not be
available
for
close to an hour, and how the airline employee refused to tell
me
which gate I needed to get to. Anyway, some of what you are
hearing
here would have been a part of your training at an NFB Center.
You
would likely have been given the chance to interact personally
with
people who had similar experiences so that you could ask them
questions. You can get some of this information here, of
course,
but
what about the many experiences that are not discussed?
Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one
another.
My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was,
because it
might be all right. I feel pretty certain that there are things
you
didn't get that you would have gotten had you spent time in one
of
our
centers as indicated above, but I don't really think that is the
point. The point is how can we help you now and how can you
help us
and other blind people? Are there things you are not
comfortable
doing that perhaps someone else here is comfortable doing? We
could
even explore here some of the things that many of us have
overcome
as
a result of the encouragement from others.
Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly
as I
see them, isn't that always true? In the end, though, I don't
care
that much whether you believe there is a difference in training
centers or not. I care more that you have what you need to get
a
job
when you get out of college and that you are able to live as
full a
life as you can live, and I believe there are ways we can help
you
do
that.
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:
I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from
federationists-that
my
local training simply must have been far, far inferior to
anything
the
NFB has. I have as of yet seen no actual compelling evidence for
this
claim, and no one I know well in the NFB has offered me
convincing
reasons as to why the training I have is bad. (Those who don't
know
me can't offer any reasons, as they don't know my context.) If
NFB
mobility is so wonderful, I wish they would allow people
interested
to
pay for a little instruction to get a sense of their methodology
in
real space time rather than forcing people to commit to six to
nine
months.
Kelby
----- Original Message -----
From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu,
21
Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
Well we all need good mobility skills. A dog is not a
replacement
for
mobility skills. Whether you use a cane, sighted guide, or a
guide
dog.
If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get
locally
then you don't know what you are missing.
Never going to them myself. I have seen what someone with no
knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own
areas,
and come back from our schools with the confidence and the
mobility
and the other services that are given there.
If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and
then a
dog. I have not been blind all my life. I lost my vision as an
adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills, my dog doesn't
know
when to cross the street, I have to give him the direction to do
so.
Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to
mention
when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will either not
want
to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or in between a dog,
or
whatever the issues are. That I know the skills to get me where
I
want to go whether it is with my Maxx or not.
Have a great night all.
Take care and god bless.
Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with kindness
to
one another; and with the philosophy of the great organization.
Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the
Way
in
Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel
Advocate!Cheryl
Echevarria,
Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST -
#1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser
for
the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other
resources.
Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6,
2013
and vacation must be traveled no later than
12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families
and
friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the
affiliate
as well. You do not need to be a member of the NFB.org, just
book
through us.
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
Scenario
I'll echo what Cindysaid. There isno way I would give up that
much
time for mobility training I already had purely for the purpose
of
getting a dog. ZPeter said, I would go somewhere else
straightaway.
Kelby
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent:
Thu,
21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
Scenario
When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a
real
lack of quality training for blind people. I don't really think
that's the case with guide schools. There are some schools
which
do
things differently from others. But, there are people who
prefer
one
approach over another. I don't really think that NFB needs to
get
involved with guide dog training.
As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the
nine
month NFB center training, first, this will severely limit the
number
of people choosing to have training from an NFB guide dog
school,
should one be started. I don't know to many people who can
give
up
a year of their life to get a guide dog.
Cindy
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Donahue
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the
past so she knows where I'm coming from. In line with her
comments
below I'd like to suggest a possible scenario for an NFB-run
guide
dog program:
Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment
centers for blind adults and youth there would be no need for a
facility for housing students in training to be constructed.
Hold
on folks.
Students
wishing to
obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
complete the
6-9 month program at one of the centers. During the student's
"Bootcamp training" the center has an opportunity to come to
know
the
student inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of
background
information on the applicant to the guide dog unit. Unlike
current
guide dog programs that must rely on references and other
information that may be true or false the NFB guide dog program
will
have all ready had accurate information gathered for them by
the
training center and can be assured that the applicant is a
suitable
candidate for a dog.
This approach will also assure the guide dog program that
the
student is up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable of
transferring them to the use of a dog. Students that
successfully
complete the cane travel component of their immersion training
would
be eligible to receive a dog.
This
approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
other aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted
time
students often experience when at guide dog training facilities.
Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required
to
wear sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes
and
participating in designated center activities. Like students
who
undergo cane travel instruction at our centers those training
with
dogs would be encouraged to travel on their own prior to
completion
of the training. In the beginning they could be accompanied by
an
experienced guide dog user/trainer but would be expected to
travel
and complete "Monster Routes" entirely on their own using their
dogs.
As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would
operate similar to those of current guide dog programs. The
program
would operate its own breeding component or obtain suitable dogs
from
donations. The usual period of socialization and puppy raising
wouldn't be that much different than is done by current guide
dog
programs. The dogs would return for a period of training when
they're taught how to guide a blind person. Once the dogs are
ready
to be pared with their future blind owner they along with an
instructor would be sent to the center where the student
receiving
the dog will be trained. Alternatively the NFB guide dog
program
could operate from one of our centers. Those wishing to obtain
dogs
once their "Bootcamp"
training is complete would transfer to that center for training
with
the dog. Using all ready existing facilities to house students
in
training is one way to reduce the cost of training guide dogs.
The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run
guide
dog program could work but I'm sure others would have additional
ideas. If it's to happen at all the discussion must continue at
a
cost of 0 to participants. All the best.
Peter Donahue
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold. First I
would like to see a more in depth background investigation of
the
blind applicant. Do a criminal background check, require more
references, ask the neighbors...whatever it takes. Adoption
agencies
place children into homes surely we can figure out a way to
more
accurately know what sort of situation the dog will be placed
into.
Secondly, I think there are already agencies in place for
dealing
with animal abuse, the police and animal control. I don't see
any
reason why these agencies can't be used in cases of neglect or
abuse.
In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of
the
dog in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid
point.
We
have
to stop expecting everything for nothing. I like the Seeing
Eye's
concept of charging the student. I do wish that the cost had
increased over the years with the cost of living. It has been
$150
since the beginning of the school in 1928. I think that's the
right
year.
$150
was a very different sum of money then and now.
I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
substantially lower sums of money than $60,000. If you look at
the
various guide dog programs and how much each claims it costs to
train
a dog, the numbers vary widely. All those buildings, fancy
food,
excessive equipment and other niceties cost money.
Julie
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--
Cordially,
Peter Q Wolfe, BA
cum laude Auburn University
e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
"If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for
anything"
Peter Q Wolfe
"Stand up for your rights"
Bob Marley
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