[Blindtlk] NFB airport assistance was Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
Mark Tardif
markspark at roadrunner.com
Fri Mar 22 19:03:06 UTC 2013
Julie, what a horrible experience! It's really frustrating when you aren't
being heard by someone who claims to want to help you and you get into a
shouting match which only makes it worse, of course. Sometime I must tell
you all about the shouting match I got into with a security person who I was
convinced wasn't using whatever limitted brain power she might have had. I
probably came close to being arrested, but that's a discussion for another
time, I think.
Mark Tardif
Nuclear arms will not hold you.
-----Original Message-----
From: Julie J.
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 10:37 AM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB airport assistance was Guide Dog School, A
Possible Scenario
Kelby,
I am a firm believer that not all help is created equal. I'll share my
airport assistance story, which is the reason that I no longer ask for
employee escorts at airports.
In 2006 I was on my way to the NFB national convention in Texas. I was
accompanied by my then guide dog, Belle and my 9 year old son. I had to
transfer planes in Denver and thought it would be prudent to take my
guide dog out to relieve during my two hour layover. I asked for
assistance to get to the relief area and then to my connecting flight.
It's a good thing I had two hours because it ended up taking that entire
time.
I had requested assistance on my initiating flight and was assured that
I'd have someone to meet me at my gate and get me where I needed to go.
It didn't happen. when I requested assistance again, a non English
speaking man did eventually come. I explained what I needed and we set
off. We wandered around for over an hour with repeated requests and
questions for information by me that went unanswered. I think we toured
every nook and cranny of that airport, the parking garages and grounds.
Eventually I fell back and lost the escort in the crowd. I got the
directions to an exterior door, got my dog out and she took care of
business within 5 minutes of loosing the escort.
He did find me and was very angry at me for ditching him. I tried to
explain that I could manage from here and that he could go on about his
regular duties, but he would not leave me alone. Then he insisted that
I go to a particular gate, which wasn't the right one. I am very glad I
had asked a previous employee about my boarding pass information. By
this time I had had it. So we got into a shouting match about where I
was and wasn't going.
It was one of the top three worst blindness experiences of my life. He
refused to listen to me, refused to respect my wishes, didn't know where
he was going and would not take no for an answer. It was a valuable
learning experience for me.
Now when I go to airports I am sure to have the details of my flights in
advance. I ask very specific directions to passers by or employees
behind desks. Generally they are not able to leave the desk so they
won't follow you. I get directions for the next bit and then ask
directions again when I get a bit closer. I keep repeating this until I
get where I'm going. It has worked very well for me and I am able to
get where I need to go within a reasonable amount of time. It's also a
much less stressful experience.
I understand that this is not the preferred travel method for all blind
people. that's fine. If your doing what you need to do in a reasonable
amount of time without undue inconvenience to yourself or others, then
it's working. I am a bit mystified by your statement that Mark Maur's
refusal of assistance was reckless. that doesn't make sense to me. If
it was working for him, how was it reckless?
Julie
On 3/22/2013 8:13 AM, Kelby Carlson wrote:
> I have, in fact, called NFB centers before about receiving some limited
> structured discovery training. I have been given the consistent message
> that that is not possible and that I would have to do the comprehensive
> program. I am not a federationist, but I am on some of the lists for
> informational purposes.
>
> To be perfectly frank, that attitude and action by President Maurer seems
> foolish and unnecessarily hostile. I'll certainly have to look at the
> link, but I would far rather wait for a few minutes for assistance than
> get putentially lost in a large, unfamiliar airport.
>
> Kelby
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 07:30:22 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>
> Well I said not going to the school I have learned from friends and
> family. Since the NFB is also family to me, we may not agree on
> everything, but that was family is.
> You also have to remember that not everyone has gone to them, since the
> schools themselves are not that old. But if you are a member of a chapter
> or an affiliate, or go to a state or national convention, you can ask
> people that have gone there to help you.
> Kelby are you a member of the NFB of just on our talk lists, and have you
> called and asked the schools to see if you can come and visit. I know
> Father John Sheehan here in NY, who is not blind, but the Chairman of the
> Xavier Society for the Blind, he is also the Chaplain for the National
> Association of Blind Veterans can help you or give you advice as well
> about going to the schools and learning there mobility skills.
> He went to one of our schools, I think for a month or less, I forget, I am
> sure if anyone on this list knows Father John, has heard the story either
> at convention or personally speaking to him,
> Father John not being blind himself, when to one of our schools, and when
> he was there, was do an experiennce he stayed there with sleepshades or
> blinders on, either way he didn't use his sight, he learned how to use a
> cane and do other things as a blind person would. He still has the cane
> the school has given him, and walks the streets of Manhattan with them, or
> at a convention he will put them on and use the cane.
> I have learned search and discover with cane travel from those that have
> gone to the school. At most training places, they just show you how to
> work a certain route and that is it, they don't teach to find your way in
> case the area is not safe for whatever reason, they are working on the
> roads or there is something going on where you cannot find your way.
> It forces you to find alternative ways of getting where you need to go.
> Like since I travel alot instead of having someone take me by the arm and
> take me there, I would ask, okay from this point do I go straight left,
> right turn around.
> There is a great speech from our National President Dr. Maurer gave at
> the National Convention in 2007 in Atlanta, GA, which by the way was my
> first National Convention that stuck in my head ot this day, I will give
> the link below, but he was at the airport, and the people at the airport
> insisted that he wait for assistance he refused and took off, and they
> yelled after him you are going the wrong way, well he said thank you
> turned around and went the other way.
> Here is the 2007 Banquet Speech by our National President Dr. Maurer.
> Expanding the Limits: The Uncertainty of Exploration
> https://nfb.org/Images/nfb/Audio/BanqSpeech/BSP-2007.mp3
> It was very powerful to someone who had just joined this organization and
> was overwhelmed by the people in a good way, I am what organization has 3
> and 4 year olds running around with canes in there hands, running mind
> you, and falling down and laughing and getting back up. Just like the
> sighted kids. I knew I was in the right place for me.
> Now I am not saying that every state has issues with there mobility
> instructors and trainers, in fact, the NFB has a program and certification
> courses that award Vocation Rehabs or state commissions for the blind for
> doing the right thing and have used the NFB trainings in there own state.
> If someone can correct me on this, I think Dr. Schroeder, President of
> Virginia is with this program. I don't remember the program organization
> etc.
> In any case, I would suggest you contact Blind Inc in Minnesota, Colorado
> Center for the Blind or the Louisiana Center for the Blind.
> Have you asked them to see if you can come out and check it out.
>
>
> Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State
> Leading the Way in Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel
> Advocate!Cheryl Echevarria,
> Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
> varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012 Norwegian
> Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
> Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST -
> #1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National Federation
> of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser for the
> http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other resources. Any
> vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6, 2013 and
> vacation must be traveled no later than 12/30/2014 a percentage of my
> earnings will go to the affiliate. Also is you book a Sandals for couples
> or Beaches for families and friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking
> will go to the affiliate as well. You do not need to be a member of the
> NFB.org, just book through us.
>
>
> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500
> From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>
> I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from
> federationists-that my local training simply must have been far,
> far inferior to anything the NFB has. I have as of yet seen no
> actual compelling evidence for this claim, and no one I know well
> in the NFB has offered me convincing reasons as to why the
> training I have is bad. (Those who don't know me can't offer any
> reasons, as they don't know my context.) If NFB mobility is so
> wonderful, I wish they would allow people interested to pay for a
> little instruction to get a sense of their methodology in real
> space time rather than forcing people to commit to six to nine
> months.
>
> Kelby
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>
> Well we all need good mobility skills. A dog is not a
> replacement for mobility skills. Whether you use a cane, sighted
> guide, or a guide dog.
> If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get
> locally then you don't know what you are missing.
> Never going to them myself. I have seen what someone with no
> knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own
> areas, and come back from our schools with the confidence and the
> mobility and the other services that are given there.
> If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
> philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and
> then a dog. I have not been blind all my life. I lost my vision
> as an adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills, my dog
> doesn't know when to cross the street, I have to give him the
> direction to do so.
> Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to
> mention when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will
> either not want to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or in
> between a dog, or whatever the issues are. That I know the
> skills to get me where I want to go whether it is with my Maxx or
> not.
> Have a great night all.
> Take care and god bless.
> Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with kindness
> to one another; and with the philosophy of the great
> organization.
> Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
>
> Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State
> Leading the Way in Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible
> Travel Advocate!Cheryl Echevarria,
>
> Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
> varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
> Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
> Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST -
> #1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
> Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser
> for the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other
> resources. Any vacation package booked between November 6
> 2012-November 6, 2013 and vacation must be traveled no later than
> 12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
> Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families
> and friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the
> affiliate as well. You do not need to be a member of the
> NFB.org, just book through us.
>
>
> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
> From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
> Scenario
>
> I'll echo what Cindysaid. There isno way I would give up that
> much time for mobility training I already had purely for the
> purpose of getting a dog. ZPeter said, I would go somewhere
> else
> straightaway.
>
> Kelby
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
> Scenario
>
> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a
> real lack of
> quality training for blind people. I don't really think that's
> the case
> with guide schools. There are some schools which do things
> differently from
> others. But, there are people who prefer one approach over
> another. I
> don't really think that NFB needs to get involved with guide dog
> training.
>
> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the
> nine
> month NFB
> center training, first, this will severely limit the number of
> people
> choosing to have training from an NFB guide dog school, should
> one be
> started. I don't know to many people who can give up a year of
> their life
> to get a guide dog.
>
> Cindy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Donahue
> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>
> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
> Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the
> past so she
> knows where I'm coming from. In line with her comments below
> I'd
> like to
> suggest a possible scenario for an NFB-run guide dog program:
>
> Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment
> centers for
> blind adults and youth there would be no need for a facility for
> housing
> students in training to be constructed. Hold on folks.
> Students
> wishing to
> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
> complete the
> 6-9 month program at one of the centers. During the student's
> "Bootcamp
> training" the center has an opportunity to come to know the
> student
> inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of background
> information on the
> applicant to the guide dog unit. Unlike current guide dog
> programs that must
> rely on references and other information that may be true or
> false the NFB
> guide dog program will have all ready had accurate information
> gathered for
> them by the training center and can be assured that the
> applicant
> is a
> suitable candidate for a dog.
>
> This approach will also assure the guide dog program that
> the
> student is
> up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable of transferring
> them to the
> use of a dog. Students that successfully complete the cane
> travel component
> of their immersion training would be eligible to receive a dog.
> This
> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
> other
> aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted time
> students
> often experience when at guide dog training facilities.
>
> Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required
> to wear
> sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes and
> participating
> in designated center activities. Like students who undergo cane
> travel
> instruction at our centers those training with dogs would be
> encouraged to
> travel on their own prior to completion of the training. In the
> beginning
> they could be accompanied by an experienced guide dog
> user/trainer but would
> be expected to travel and complete "Monster Routes" entirely on
> their own
> using their dogs.
>
> As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would
> operate
> similar to those of current guide dog programs. The program
> would operate
> its own breeding component or obtain suitable dogs from
> donations. The usual
> period of socialization and puppy raising wouldn't be that much
> different
> than is done by current guide dog programs. The dogs would
> return for a
> period of training when they're taught how to guide a blind
> person. Once the
> dogs are ready to be pared with their future blind owner they
> along with an
> instructor would be sent to the center where the student
> receiving the dog
> will be trained. Alternatively the NFB guide dog program could
> operate from
> one of our centers. Those wishing to obtain dogs once their
> "Bootcamp"
> training is complete would transfer to that center for training
> with the
> dog. Using all ready existing facilities to house students in
> training is
> one way to reduce the cost of training guide dogs.
>
> The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run
> guide dog
> program could work but I'm sure others would have additional
> ideas. If it's
> to happen at all the discussion must continue at a cost of 0 to
> participants. All the best.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>
>
> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold. First I
> would
> like to see a more in depth background investigation of the
> blind
> applicant. Do a criminal background check, require more
> references, ask
> the neighbors...whatever it takes. Adoption agencies place
> children
> into homes surely we can figure out a way to more accurately
> know
> what
> sort of situation the dog will be placed into. Secondly, I
> think
> there
> are already agencies in place for dealing with animal abuse, the
> police
> and animal control. I don't see any reason why these agencies
> can't be
> used in cases of neglect or abuse.
>
> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of
> the dog
> in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid point.
> We
> have
> to stop expecting everything for nothing. I like the Seeing
> Eye's
> concept of charging the student. I do wish that the cost had
> increased
> over the years with the cost of living. It has been $150 since
> the
> beginning of the school in 1928. I think that's the right year.
> $150
> was a very different sum of money then and now.
>
> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
> substantially
> lower sums of money than $60,000. If you look at the various
> guide dog
> programs and how much each claims it costs to train a dog, the
> numbers
> vary widely. All those buildings, fancy food, excessive
> equipment and
> other niceties cost money.
>
> Julie
>
>
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