[Blindtlk] NFB airport assistance was Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario

Fri Mar 22 14:49:37 UTC 2013

Julie,

Let me retract the statement I made about Maurer, as it was given 
without enough regard to the specific context.  With that said, I 
really appreciate your story and can totally understand why this 
would put you off airport assistance.  I have not had something 
like that happen to me and (provided I'm with the right airline) 
assistance service is generally very good.  I don't doubt your 
method works well you-that's awesome! My primary concern is what 
is most efficient for myself.  Now that I have your method, who 
knows? Perhaps I will discover it will work even better for me.  
My general philosophy is that all blind people should be able to 
effectively use alternative techniques but also have the freedom 
to figure out what works for them in their specific contexts.  
This is different for every blind person, so I'm glad you shared 
a method that works well for you.

Kelby

 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 09:37:59 -0500
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB airport assistance was Guide Dog 
School,A Possible Scenario

Kelby,

I am a firm believer that not all help is created equal.  I'll 
share my
airport assistance story, which is the reason that I no longer 
ask for
employee escorts at airports.

In 2006 I was on my way to the NFB national convention in Texas.  
I was
accompanied by my then guide dog, Belle and my 9 year old son.  I 
had to
transfer planes in Denver and thought it would be prudent to take 
my
guide dog out to relieve during my two hour layover.  I asked for
assistance to get to the relief area and then to my connecting 
flight.
It's a good thing I had two hours because it ended up taking that 
entire
time.

I had requested assistance on my initiating flight and was 
assured that
I'd have someone to meet me at my gate and get me where I needed 
to go.
It didn't happen.  when I requested assistance again, a non 
English
speaking man did eventually come.   I explained what I needed and 
we set
off.  We wandered around for over an hour with repeated requests 
and
questions for information by me that went unanswered.  I think we 
toured
every nook and cranny of that airport, the parking garages and 
grounds.
Eventually I fell back and lost the escort in the crowd.  I got 
the
directions to an exterior door, got my dog out and she took care 
of
business within 5 minutes of loosing the escort.

He did find me and was very angry at me for ditching him.  I 
tried to
explain that I could manage from here and that he could go on 
about his
regular duties, but he would not leave me alone.  Then he 
insisted that
I go to a particular gate, which wasn't the right one.  I am very 
glad I
had asked a previous employee about my boarding pass information.  
By
this time I had had it.  So we got into a shouting match about 
where I
was and wasn't  going.

It was one of the top three worst blindness experiences of my 
life.  He
refused to listen to me, refused to respect my wishes, didn't 
know where
he was going and would not take no for an answer.  It was a 
valuable
learning experience for me.

Now when I go to airports I am sure to have the details of my 
flights in
advance.  I ask very specific directions to passers by or 
employees
behind desks.  Generally they are not able to leave the desk so 
they
won't follow you.  I get directions for the next bit and then ask
directions again when I get a bit closer.  I keep repeating this 
until I
get where I'm going.  It has worked very well for me and I am 
able to
get where I need to go within a reasonable amount of time.  It's 
also a
much less stressful experience.

I understand that this is not the preferred travel method for all 
blind
people.  that's fine.  If your doing what you need to do in a 
reasonable
amount of time without undue inconvenience to yourself or others, 
then
it's working.  I am a bit mystified by your statement that Mark 
Maur's
refusal of assistance was reckless.  that doesn't make sense to 
me.  If
it was working for him, how was it reckless?

Julie

On 3/22/2013 8:13 AM, Kelby Carlson wrote:
 I have, in fact, called NFB centers before about receiving some
 limited structured discovery training.  I have been given the
 consistent message that that is not possible and that I would 
have to
 do the comprehensive program.  I am not a federationist, but I 
am on
 some of the lists for informational purposes.

 To be perfectly frank, that attitude and action by President 
Maurer
 seems foolish and unnecessarily hostile.  I'll certainly have to 
look
 at the link, but I would far rather wait for a few minutes for
 assistance than get putentially lost in a large, unfamiliar 
airport.

 Kelby

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
 To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
 Date sent: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 07:30:22 -0400
 Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible 
Scenario

 Well I said not going to the school I have learned from friends 
and
 family.  Since the NFB is also family to me, we may not agree on
 everything, but that was family is.
 You also have to remember that not everyone has gone to them, 
since
 the schools themselves are not that old.  But if you are a 
member of a
 chapter or an affiliate, or go to a state or national 
convention, you
 can ask people that have gone there to help you.
 Kelby are you a member of the NFB of just on our talk lists, and 
have
 you called and asked the schools to see if you can come and 
visit.  I
 know Father John Sheehan here in NY, who is not blind, but the
 Chairman of the Xavier Society for the Blind, he is also the 
Chaplain
 for the National Association of Blind Veterans can help you or 
give
 you advice as well about going to the schools and learning there
 mobility skills.
 He went to one of our schools, I think for a month or less, I 
forget,
 I am sure if anyone on this list knows Father John, has heard 
the
 story either at convention or personally speaking to him,
 Father John not being blind himself, when to one of our schools, 
and
 when he was there, was do an experiennce he stayed there with
 sleepshades or blinders on, either way he didn't use his sight, 
he
 learned how to use a cane and do other things as a blind person
 would.  He still has the cane the school has given him, and 
walks the
 streets of Manhattan with them, or at a convention he will put 
them on
 and use the cane.
 I have learned search and discover with cane travel from those 
that
 have gone to the school.  At most training places, they just 
show you
 how to work a certain route and that is it, they don't teach to 
find
 your way in case the area is not safe for whatever reason, they 
are
 working on the roads or there is something going on where you 
cannot
 find your way.
 It forces you to find alternative ways of getting where you need 
to go.
 Like since I travel alot instead of having someone take me by 
the arm
 and take me there, I would ask, okay from this point do I go 
straight
 left, right turn around.
 There is a great speech from our National President Dr.  Maurer 
gave
 at the National Convention in 2007 in Atlanta, GA, which by the 
way
 was my first National Convention that stuck in my head ot this 
day, I
 will give the link below, but he was at the airport, and the 
people at
 the airport insisted that he wait for assistance he refused and 
took
 off, and they yelled after him you are going the wrong way, well 
he
 said thank you turned around and went the other way.
 Here is the 2007 Banquet Speech by our National President Dr.  
Maurer.
 Expanding the Limits: The Uncertainty of Exploration
 https://nfb.org/Images/nfb/Audio/BanqSpeech/BSP-2007.mp3
 It was very powerful to someone who had just joined this 
organization
 and was overwhelmed by the people in a good way, I am what
 organization has 3 and 4 year olds running around with canes in 
there
 hands, running mind you, and falling down and laughing and 
getting
 back up.  Just like the sighted kids.  I knew I was in the right 
place
 for me.
 Now I am not saying that every state has issues with there 
mobility
 instructors and trainers, in fact, the NFB has a program and
 certification courses that award Vocation Rehabs or state 
commissions
 for the blind for doing the right thing and have used the NFB
 trainings in there own state.
 If someone can correct me on this, I think Dr.  Schroeder, 
President
 of Virginia is with this program.  I don't remember the program
 organization etc.
 In any case, I would suggest you contact Blind Inc in Minnesota,
 Colorado Center for the Blind or the Louisiana Center for the 
Blind.
 Have you asked them to see if you can come out and check it out.

 Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State
 Leading the Way in Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible
 Travel Advocate!Cheryl Echevarria,

Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
 varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
 Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
 Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST 
-
 #1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
 Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser 
for
 the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other 
resources.
 Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6, 
2013
 and vacation must be traveled no later than 12/30/2014 a 
percentage of
 my earnings will go to the affiliate.  Also is you book a 
Sandals for
 couples or Beaches for families and friends resorts vacation, 
$100.00
 per booking will go to the affiliate as well.  You do not need 
to be a
 member of the NFB.org, just book through us.

 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500
 From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
 To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
 Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible 
Scenario

 I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from
 federationists-that my local training simply must have been far,
 far inferior to anything the NFB has.  I have as of yet seen no
 actual compelling evidence for this claim, and no one I know 
well
 in the NFB has offered me convincing reasons as to why the
 training I have is bad.  (Those who don't know me can't offer 
any
 reasons, as they don't know my context.) If NFB mobility is so
 wonderful, I wish they would allow people interested to pay for 
a
 little instruction to get a sense of their methodology in real
 space time rather than forcing people to commit to six to nine
 months.

 Kelby

  ----- Original Message -----
 From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
 To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
 Date sent: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
 Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible 
Scenario

 Well we all need good mobility skills.  A dog is not a
 replacement for mobility skills.  Whether you use a cane, 
sighted
 guide, or a guide dog.
 If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get
 locally then you don't know what you are missing.
 Never going to them myself.  I have seen what someone with no
 knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own
 areas, and come back from our schools with the confidence and 
the
 mobility and the other services that are given there.
 If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
 philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and
 then a dog.  I have not been blind all my life.  I lost my 
vision
 as an adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills, my dog
 doesn't know when to cross the street, I have to give him the
 direction to do so.
 Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to
 mention when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will
 either not want to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or 
in
 between a dog, or whatever the issues are.  That I know the
 skills to get me where I want to go whether it is with my Maxx 
or
 not.
 Have a great night all.
 Take care and god bless.
 Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with 
kindness
 to one another; and with the philosophy of the great
 organization.
 Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism

 Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State
 Leading the Way in Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible
 Travel Advocate!Cheryl Echevarria,

Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
 varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
 Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
 Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST 
-
 #1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
 Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser
 for the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other
 resources.  Any vacation package booked between November 6
 2012-November 6, 2013 and vacation must be traveled no later 
than
 12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
 Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families
 and friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the
 affiliate as well.  You do not need to be a member of the
 NFB.org, just book through us.

  Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
  From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
  To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
  Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
 Scenario

  I'll echo what Cindysaid.  There isno way I would give up that
  much time for mobility training I already had purely for the
  purpose of getting a dog.  ZPeter said, I would go somewhere
 else
  straightaway.

  Kelby

   ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
  To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
  Date sent: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
  Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
 Scenario

  When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a
  real lack of
  quality training for blind people.  I don't really think that's
  the case
  with guide schools.  There are some schools which do things
  differently from
  others.  But, there are people who prefer one approach over
  another.  I
  don't really think that NFB needs to get involved with guide 
dog
  training.

  As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the
 nine
  month NFB
  center training, first, this will severely limit the number of
  people
  choosing to have training from an NFB guide dog school, should
  one be
  started.  I don't know to many people who can give up a year of
  their life
  to get a guide dog.

  Cindy

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Peter Donahue
  Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
  To: Blind Talk Mailing List
  Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario

  Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
      Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in 
the
  past so she
  knows where I'm coming from.  In line with her comments below
 I'd
  like to
  suggest a possible scenario for an NFB-run guide dog program:

          Since we all ready have three orientation and 
adjustment
  centers for
  blind adults and youth there would be no need for a facility 
for
  housing
  students in training to be constructed.  Hold on folks.
 Students
  wishing to
  obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
  complete the
  6-9 month program at one of the centers.  During the student's
  "Bootcamp
  training" the center has an opportunity to come to know the
  student
  inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of background
  information on the
  applicant to the guide dog unit.  Unlike current guide dog
  programs that must
  rely on references and other information that may be true or
  false the NFB
  guide dog program will have all ready had accurate information
  gathered for
  them by the training center and can be assured that the
 applicant
  is a
  suitable candidate for a dog.

      This approach will also assure the guide dog program that
 the
  student is
  up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable of transferring
  them to the
  use of a dog.  Students that successfully complete the cane
  travel component
  of their immersion training would be eligible to receive a dog.
  This
  approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
  other
  aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted time
  students
  often experience when at guide dog training facilities.

      Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required
  to wear
  sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes and
  participating
  in designated center activities.  Like students who undergo 
cane
  travel
  instruction at our centers those training with dogs would be
  encouraged to
  travel on their own prior to completion of the training.  In 
the
  beginning
  they could be accompanied by an experienced guide dog
  user/trainer but would
  be expected to travel and complete "Monster Routes" entirely on
  their own
  using their dogs.

      As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it 
would
  operate
  similar to those of current guide dog programs.  The program
  would operate
  its own breeding component or obtain suitable dogs from
  donations.  The usual
  period of socialization and puppy raising wouldn't be that much
  different
  than is done by current guide dog programs.  The dogs would
  return for a
  period of training when they're taught how to guide a blind
  person.  Once the
  dogs are ready to be pared with their future blind owner they
  along with an
  instructor would be sent to the center where the student
  receiving the dog
  will be trained.  Alternatively the NFB guide dog program could
  operate from
  one of our centers.  Those wishing to obtain dogs once their
  "Bootcamp"
  training is complete would transfer to that center for training
  with the
  dog.  Using all ready existing facilities to house students in
  training is
  one way to reduce the cost of training guide dogs.

      The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run
  guide dog
  program could work but I'm sure others would have additional
  ideas.  If it's
  to happen at all the discussion must continue at a cost of 0 to
  participants.  All the best.

  Peter Donahue

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
  To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
  Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
  Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup

  I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold.  First I
  would
  like to see a more in depth background investigation of the
 blind
  applicant.  Do a criminal background check, require more
  references, ask
  the neighbors...whatever it takes.  Adoption agencies place
  children
  into homes surely we can figure out a way to more accurately
 know
  what
  sort of situation the dog will be placed into.  Secondly, I
 think
  there
  are already agencies in place for dealing with animal abuse, 
the
  police
  and animal control.  I don't see any reason why these agencies
  can't be
  used in cases of neglect or abuse.

  In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of
  the dog
  in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid point.
 We
  have
  to stop expecting everything for nothing.  I like the Seeing
  Eye's
  concept of charging the student.  I do wish that the cost had
  increased
  over the years with the cost of living.  It has been $150 since
  the
  beginning of the school in 1928.  I think that's the right 
year.
  $150
  was a very different sum of money then and now.

  I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
  substantially
  lower sums of money than $60,000.  If you look at the various
  guide dog
  programs and how much each claims it costs to train a dog, the
  numbers
  vary widely.  All those buildings, fancy food, excessive
  equipment and
  other niceties cost money.

  Julie

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