[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?

Chris Nusbaum dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com
Sat Mar 23 02:47:15 UTC 2013


To my knowledge, they don't have one.

Chris

Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair
Public Relations Committee
Maryland Association of Blind Students
Phone: (443) 547-2409

-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of justin
williams
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 10:15 PM
To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
Not?

What model does the ACB use?

-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of RJ Sandefur
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 8:33 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
Not?

Why does the ACB hate this model of training? RJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
Not?


> Good evening everyone,
>
>    It's also well documented that our ideas, philosophy, and methods 
> are the most effective. Many agencies that once shunned us now embrace 
> these positions and techniques and have implemented them in to their
programs.
> If
> it gets results who cares about the "NFB way or no way" horsepuckey! 
> With state and federal belt tightening going on this trend will 
> continue in to the future as agencies for the blind strive to get the 
> best bang for their bucks.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Nusbaum" <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com>
> To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 6:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers 
> or Not?
>
>
> Desiree,
>
> I know it's a figure of speech, but... lions' den? Is that what you 
> see the NFB as?
>
> Chris
>
> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair
> Public Relations Committee
> Maryland Association of Blind Students
> Phone: (443) 547-2409
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
> Desiree Oudinot
> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 7:27 PM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers 
> or Not?
>
> I concur with your assessment, but don't expect to get any support 
> from NFB members. I give you props for willingly entering the lion's 
> den, though.
>
> On 3/22/13, kelby carlson <kelbycarlson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> My reservations are primarily attached to what I see as a "my way or 
>> the highway" mentality. Despite protestations to the contrary, I get 
>> the distinct feeling the NFB really believes it has found *the way* 
>> of understanding and living with blindness. While the NFB's 
>> particular methodology may work for some people--and has a good deal 
>> to commend it--it's just not something I'm comfortable embracing. I 
>> also detect a kind of insularity--a constant "looking in" if you 
>> will--that is unhelpful. It's one thing to have a like-minded 
>> community, but I sometimes feel as if there is a kind of feeling of 
>> superiority over sighted people--or even non-Federationists! I have 
>> felt distinctly out of the loop and out of place at some NFB events 
>> because I wasn't "plugged in", didn't know the lingo, and didn't have 
>> the kind of personal history that most other federationists seem to 
>> have. I cannot use these experiences to discourage anyone from 
>> joining the NFB, nor do I wish to. As I said previously in this 
>> discussion, I am uncomfortable with arguments based on anecdotal 
>> experience. This, then, is not an argument for or against the NFB--it 
>> probably explains more about me than the Federation. I hope that 
>> helps
clarify a little.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> A good soldier is not measured by how many bullets they fire, but by 
>>> their dedication to the cause. And a warrior doesn't need to be on 
>>> the battlefield to prove his worth to society.
>>>
>>> On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Be a warrior.  Be on the frong lines.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>>>> kelby carlson
>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:52 PM
>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB 
>>>> Centers or Not?
>>>>
>>>> My perspective is similar to Desiree's. I have every intention of 
>>>> getting more involved in blindness advocacy in some way. However, I 
>>>> have reservations about all of the organizations there are. (It's 
>>>> totally possible those reservations will go away some day.) For 
>>>> now, I want to figure out what's going to work best for me as a 
>>>> blind person and do what I can individually to help others as well.
>>>> There is great value in collectivity--no mistake--I'm just at a 
>>>> place where that isn't how I believe i can best function. I do hope 
>>>> to attend the convention one of these years, though, and my mind 
>>>> could definitely change!
>>>>
>>>> I know I may come across sounding antagonistic toward the 
>>>> Federation at times. I need to work harder on moderating what I say 
>>>> and how I say it. But believe me when I say I see a ton of value in 
>>>> the Federation and a great deal that I like and agree with.
>>>> Fundamentally, my philosophy is very similar (I think) to the NFB 
>>>> philosophy. How it is worked out practically is sometimes where the
> rubber meets the road.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> While I won't speak for Peter, I'll give my own perspective on why 
>>>>> I choose not to join the NFB or ACB.
>>>>> It's not about having a superiority complex. I don't consider 
>>>>> myself to be better than anyone who is part of an organization.
>>>>> however, I like to draw my own conclusions, keeping politics and 
>>>>> hidden agendas at arm's length. That's why my involvement only 
>>>>> extends as far as listservs will take it. I feel that reading 
>>>>> messages written by individual members is a much more unbiased, 
>>>>> not to mention realistic view, of how the members of each 
>>>>> organization live, work and interact in day-to-day life. At a 
>>>>> meeting or convention, there's the expectation that one must carry 
>>>>> themselves a certain way, say the right things, be inspired by all 
>>>>> the right catch phrases. That's not limited to organizations for 
>>>>> or of the blind, either, that's a fact of human nature. When you 
>>>>> draw a large number of like-minded individuals together, and get 
>>>>> them all to focus on one specific problem, proposition, or what 
>>>>> have you, the people will either put their best or worst foot 
>>>>> forward collectively. There is little time for individual thought 
>>>>> processes, emotions, or personalities to take root and stand above 
>>>>> the
> rest.
>>>>> I am, by nature, very reserved, maybe I could even be classified 
>>>>> as a loner in a lot of ways. As I said, I think and draw 
>>>>> conclusions best when there are no distractions, no bells and 
>>>>> whistles so to speak. I take what is important to me, what fits in 
>>>>> with my values and beliefs, and apply it to how I live my life. I 
>>>>> don't honestly feel that I need to belong to anything to find my 
>>>>> purpose, nor should I be told that I have no purpose unless I'm at 
>>>>> the forefront of every high and low point in the organization's 
>>>>> history. I am content with this, and I feel that I have a right to 
>>>>> speak out about it, since it's a viewpoint which most who hold it 
>>>>> would probably not be comfortable expressing for fear of being 
>>>>> blamed and
> shamed.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/22/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hello, Peter.  I have not followed this thread, but I have looked 
>>>>>> at one or two of your posts.  I think it is a shame that you will 
>>>>>> not join the American Council of the Blind or the National 
>>>>>> Federation of the Blind.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> suppose you believe there is some kind of superiority in being 
>>>>>> what you might call an independent.  Perhaps you are right, but 
>>>>>> my own life experience indicates that having influence means 
>>>>>> joining with others of like mind, exploring how you can 
>>>>>> understand them and get them to understand you, and then acting 
>>>>>> together in a concerted way to bring about the better world we 
>>>>>> all
say we want.
>>>>>> One popular buzzword you can't help but hear if you listen to 
>>>>>> five minutes of the news is the word infrastructure, but there is 
>>>>>> a lot to be said for having a way to effect the change we want.
>>>>>> For me this is the National Federation of the Blind.  For others 
>>>>>> it is the American Council of the Blind.  Though the 
>>>>>> organizations may disagree from time to time, one thing most all 
>>>>>> of us share is that we have made a commitment to blind people 
>>>>>> that extends beyond words.  We are willing to put our time, our 
>>>>>> energy, and our money into helping you, whether or not you 
>>>>>> appreciate that we do so or ever raise a finger to help us. Much 
>>>>>> distance remains for us to travel, and we certainly can use a 
>>>>>> willing
hand at the oars.
>>>>>> Thanks for reading.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>>>>>> Peter Wolfe
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:52 PM
>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB 
>>>>>> Centers or Not?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     In fact, the best method that anybody can teach you is 
>>>>>> improvization not technique persay. It doesn't matter where you 
>>>>>> get any information from on these things whether NFB, ACB, AFB, 
>>>>>> Lion's Club's or wherever as long as you get whatever information.
>>>>>> Make-up yoru own techniques and sell a book for all I care as 
>>>>>> long as it works for you that is all that counts. I could 
>>>>>> careless as logn as you share the information with fellow blind 
>>>>>> individuals that is my thhing that it shouldn't matter what 
>>>>>> special interest group that your apart of cause we should all 
>>>>>> work together in dealing with a rotten situation to make it 
>>>>>> better. By the way, I'm never going to be part of NFB, ACB, AFB 
>>>>>> or
any of them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> sincerely,
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Kelby,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive answer.
>>>>>>> I can only tell you that I received training before there were 
>>>>>>> NFB centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler and 
>>>>>>> have generally managed my life successfully.  However, in the 
>>>>>>> work I have done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there are 
>>>>>>> things I missed when I was trained.  I think I have picked up 
>>>>>>> much of what I missed primarily because of my association with 
>>>>>>> others
> in the Federation.
>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>> has more to do with being confident enough to try new situations 
>>>>>>> and knowing that I'll figure them out even if I don't know 
>>>>>>> exactly how at the start, and less to do with how many inches I 
>>>>>>> swing my cane left and right.  In my opinion, and you may see 
>>>>>>> this as a cop-out, it has less to do with comparing the quality 
>>>>>>> of one's travel skills and more to do with whether one actually 
>>>>>>> gets out and travels.  These are not easy things to measure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the 
>>>>>>> past, but I don't know how well you travel, for example.  What I 
>>>>>>> do know is that most of us are affected by the general attitudes 
>>>>>>> that surround us in a way that is hard to measure.  Even though 
>>>>>>> we have some idea of what our capabilities are, unless we are 
>>>>>>> exceptionally confident, we are going to tend to believe it if 
>>>>>>> we are uncertain how we would accomplish a given thing and 
>>>>>>> someone tells us we can't do it.  I believe there was a time 
>>>>>>> when there was a clear dividing line between NFB training 
>>>>>>> centers and many other centers.  We believed that we have to 
>>>>>>> affect one's attitude toward blindness and oneself while most 
>>>>>>> other centers believed that they need to concentrate on teaching
techniques.
>>>>>>> The common belief among some other centers was that changing 
>>>>>>> attitudes toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was 
>>>>>>> outside of their mandate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that 
>>>>>>> there is a more general acceptance of the notion that one's 
>>>>>>> belief in oneself is probably as important as the techniques 
>>>>>>> used so some of the lines are not as clear as they once were.
>>>>>>> Still, I am skeptical of how well attitudes can be changed in a 
>>>>>>> couple of months, but of course, it depends some upon the 
>>>>>>> starting point of the individual.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not 
>>>>>>> all good travelers.  The person making the observation, who 
>>>>>>> shall remain nameless, said that they felt a need to jump in and 
>>>>>>> help but there were too many people to try to help all at once.
>>>>>>> However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people 
>>>>>>> were getting where they needed to go without assistance, and 
>>>>>>> that what appeared to be potentially frustrating to an observer 
>>>>>>> was not the case for the traveler.  This isn't meant to diminish 
>>>>>>> the role of good travel techniques, only to make the point that 
>>>>>>> there is more to travel than techniques.  Having said all this, 
>>>>>>> though, I also believe that what we have come to call structured 
>>>>>>> discovery is a valid difference in how one learns to travel.  In 
>>>>>>> some ways, it takes longer to learn but provides a better base 
>>>>>>> from which to work.  Some of us who did not attend NFB training 
>>>>>>> centers have adopted this approach on our own to some degree, 
>>>>>>> but we would probably have adopted it more easily having had 
>>>>>>> training in an NFB center.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
>>>>>>> Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have taken.
>>>>>>> Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem to 
>>>>>>> be more open to the possibility that there are sometimes reasons 
>>>>>>> for positions we might have taken.  I won't bore you with the 
>>>>>>> details of the time I almost missed a flight because I allowed 
>>>>>>> myself to be talked into waiting for a cart, only to have one 
>>>>>>> not be available for close to an hour, and how the airline 
>>>>>>> employee refused to tell me which gate I needed to get to.
>>>>>>> Anyway, some of what you are hearing here would have been a part 
>>>>>>> of your training at an NFB Center.  You would likely have been 
>>>>>>> given the chance to interact personally with people who had 
>>>>>>> similar experiences so that you could ask them questions.  You 
>>>>>>> can get some of this information here, of course, but what about 
>>>>>>> the many
> experiences that are not discussed?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one 
>>>>>>> another.
>>>>>>> My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was, 
>>>>>>> because it might be all right.  I feel pretty certain that there 
>>>>>>> are things you didn't get that you would have gotten had you 
>>>>>>> spent time in one of our centers as indicated above, but I don't 
>>>>>>> really think that is the point.  The point is how can we help 
>>>>>>> you now and how can you help us and other blind people?  Are 
>>>>>>> there things you are not comfortable doing that perhaps someone 
>>>>>>> else here is comfortable doing?  We could even explore here some 
>>>>>>> of the things that many of us have overcome as a result of the 
>>>>>>> encouragement from others.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly 
>>>>>>> as I see them, isn't that always true?  In the end, though, I 
>>>>>>> don't care that much whether you believe there is a difference 
>>>>>>> in training centers or not.  I care more that you have what you 
>>>>>>> need to get a job when you get out of college and that you are 
>>>>>>> able to live as full a life as you can live, and I believe there 
>>>>>>> are ways we can help you do that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from 
>>>>>>>>federationists-that my local training simply must have been far, 
>>>>>>>>far inferior to anything  the NFB has.  I have as of yet seen no 
>>>>>>>>actual compelling evidence for  this claim, and no one I know 
>>>>>>>>well in the NFB has offered me convincing reasons as to why the 
>>>>>>>>training I have is bad.  (Those who don't know me can't offer 
>>>>>>>>any reasons, as they don't know my context.) If NFB mobility is 
>>>>>>>>so wonderful, I wish they would allow people interested  to pay 
>>>>>>>>for a little instruction to get a sense of their methodology in 
>>>>>>>>real space time rather than forcing people to commit to six to 
>>>>>>>>nine months.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Kelby
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu,
>>>>>>>>21 Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible 
>>>>>>>>Scenario
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Well we all need good mobility skills.  A dog is not a 
>>>>>>>>replacement  for mobility skills.  Whether you use a cane, 
>>>>>>>>sighted guide, or a guide dog.
>>>>>>>>If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get 
>>>>>>>>locally then you don't know what you are missing.
>>>>>>>>Never going to them myself.  I have seen what someone with no 
>>>>>>>>knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own 
>>>>>>>>areas, and come back from our schools with the confidence and 
>>>>>>>>the mobility and the other services that are given there.
>>>>>>>>If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's 
>>>>>>>>philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and 
>>>>>>>>then a dog.  I have not been blind all my life.  I lost my 
>>>>>>>>vision as an adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills, 
>>>>>>>>my dog doesn't  know when to cross the street, I have to give 
>>>>>>>>him the direction to do so.
>>>>>>>>Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to 
>>>>>>>>mention when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will 
>>>>>>>>either not want to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or 
>>>>>>>>in between a dog, or whatever the issues are.  That I know the 
>>>>>>>>skills to get me where I want to go whether it is with my Maxx 
>>>>>>>>or not.
>>>>>>>>Have a great night all.
>>>>>>>>Take care and god bless.
>>>>>>>>Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with 
>>>>>>>>kindness to one another; and with the philosophy of the great
organization.
>>>>>>>>Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the 
>>>>>>>>Way in Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel 
>>>>>>>>Advocate!Cheryl Echevarria, 
>>>>>>>>Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@ech
>>>>>>>>e
>>>>>>>>varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
>>>>>>>>Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
>>>>>>>>Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST
>>>>>>>>- #1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National 
>>>>>>>>Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser 
>>>>>>>>for the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other
> resources.
>>>>>>>>Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6,
>>>>>>>>2013 and vacation must be traveled no later than
>>>>>>>>12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
>>>>>>>>Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families 
>>>>>>>>and friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the 
>>>>>>>>affiliate as well.  You do not need to be a member of the 
>>>>>>>>NFB.org, just book through us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
>>>>>>>> From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible 
>>>>>>>> Scenario
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'll echo what Cindysaid.  There isno way I would give up that 
>>>>>>>>much time for mobility training I already had purely for the 
>>>>>>>>purpose of getting a dog.  ZPeter said, I would go somewhere 
>>>>>>>>else
> straightaway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kelby
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org  Date sent:
>>>>>>>>Thu,
>>>>>>>>21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible 
>>>>>>>>Scenario
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a 
>>>>>>>> real lack of quality training for blind people.  I don't really 
>>>>>>>> think that's the case with guide schools.  There are some 
>>>>>>>> schools which do things differently from others.  But, there 
>>>>>>>> are people who prefer one approach over another.  I don't 
>>>>>>>> really think that NFB needs to get involved with guide dog
training.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the 
>>>>>>>>nine month NFB  center training, first, this will severely limit 
>>>>>>>>the  number of  people  choosing to have training from an NFB 
>>>>>>>>guide dog school, should  one be  started.  I don't know to many 
>>>>>>>>people who can give up a year of  their life  to get a guide dog.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
>>>>>>>>     Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in 
>>>>>>>>the past so she  knows where I'm coming from.  In line with her 
>>>>>>>>comments below I'd  like to  suggest a possible scenario for an 
>>>>>>>>NFB-run guide dog program:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>         Since we all ready have three orientation and 
>>>>>>>>adjustment centers for  blind adults and youth there would be no 
>>>>>>>>need for a facility for  housing  students in training to be
constructed.
>>>>>>>>Hold on folks.
>>>>>>>>Students
>>>>>>>> wishing to
>>>>>>>> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to 
>>>>>>>>complete the
>>>>>>>> 6-9 month program at one of the centers.  During the student's 
>>>>>>>>"Bootcamp  training" the center has an opportunity to come to 
>>>>>>>>know  the student  inside-out and will be able to furnish lots 
>>>>>>>>of background information on the  applicant to the guide dog unit.
>>>>>>>>Unlike current guide dog  programs that must  rely on references 
>>>>>>>>and other information that may be true or  false the NFB  guide 
>>>>>>>>dog program  will have all ready had accurate information 
>>>>>>>>gathered for  them by the training center and can be assured 
>>>>>>>>that the applicant  is a  suitable candidate for a dog.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     This approach will also assure the guide dog program that 
>>>>>>>>the student is  up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable 
>>>>>>>>of transferring  them to the  use of a dog.  Students that 
>>>>>>>>successfully complete the cane  travel component  of their 
>>>>>>>>immersion training  would be eligible to receive a dog.
>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete 
>>>>>>>>other  aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted 
>>>>>>>>time students  often experience when at guide dog training
> facilities.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required 
>>>>>>>> to wear sleep shades as they do when taking other center 
>>>>>>>> classes and participating in designated center activities.
>>>>>>>> Like students who undergo cane travel instruction at our 
>>>>>>>> centers those training with dogs would be encouraged to travel 
>>>>>>>> on their own prior to completion of the training.  In the 
>>>>>>>> beginning they could be accompanied by an experienced guide dog 
>>>>>>>> user/trainer but would be expected to travel and complete 
>>>>>>>> "Monster
Routes"
>>>>>>>> entirely on their own using their dogs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it 
>>>>>>>> would operate similar to those of current guide dog programs.
>>>>>>>> The program would operate its own breeding component or obtain 
>>>>>>>> suitable dogs from donations.  The usual period of 
>>>>>>>> socialization and puppy raising wouldn't be that much different 
>>>>>>>> than is done by current guide dog programs.  The dogs would 
>>>>>>>> return for a period of training when they're taught how to 
>>>>>>>> guide a blind person.  Once the dogs are ready to be pared with 
>>>>>>>> their future blind owner they along with an instructor would be 
>>>>>>>> sent to the center where the student receiving the dog will be
trained.
>>>>>>>> Alternatively the NFB guide dog program could operate from one 
>>>>>>>> of our centers.  Those wishing to obtain dogs once their 
>>>>>>>> "Bootcamp"
>>>>>>>> training is complete would transfer to that center for training 
>>>>>>>> with the dog.  Using all ready existing facilities to house 
>>>>>>>> students in training is one way to reduce the cost of training 
>>>>>>>> guide
> dogs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run 
>>>>>>>> guide dog program could work but I'm sure others would have 
>>>>>>>> additional ideas.  If it's to happen at all the discussion must 
>>>>>>>> continue at a cost of 0 to participants.  All the best.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold.  First I 
>>>>>>>>would  like to see a more in depth background investigation of 
>>>>>>>>the blind  applicant.  Do a criminal background check, require 
>>>>>>>>more references, ask  the neighbors...whatever it takes.
>>>>>>>>Adoption  agencies place  children  into homes surely we can 
>>>>>>>>figure out a way to more accurately know  what  sort of 
>>>>>>>>situation the dog will be placed into.
>>>>>>>>Secondly, I think  there  are already agencies in place for 
>>>>>>>>dealing with animal abuse, the  police  and animal control.  I 
>>>>>>>>don't see any reason why these agencies  can't be  used in cases 
>>>>>>>>of neglect or abuse.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of 
>>>>>>>>the dog  in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid
> point.
>>>>>>>>We
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> to stop expecting everything for nothing.  I like the Seeing 
>>>>>>>>Eye's concept of charging the student.  I do wish that the cost 
>>>>>>>>had increased  over the years with the cost of living.  It has 
>>>>>>>>been $150 since  the  beginning of the school in 1928.  I think 
>>>>>>>>that's the  right year.
>>>>>>>> $150
>>>>>>>> was a very different sum of money then and now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for 
>>>>>>>> substantially lower sums of money than $60,000.  If you look at 
>>>>>>>> the various guide dog programs and how much each claims it 
>>>>>>>> costs to train a dog, the numbers vary widely.  All those 
>>>>>>>> buildings, fancy food, excessive equipment and other niceties 
>>>>>>>> cost
money.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
>>>>>>>>info for
>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%
>>>>>>>>4
>>>>>>>> 0satx.rr.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>o
>>>>>>>> n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>info  for
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>>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/cherylandm
>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>xx%40hotmail.com
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>o
>>>>>>>>n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>info for
>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/steve.jaco
>>>>>>>>b
>>>>>>>>son%4
>>>>>>>>0visi.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>> info for
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>>>>>>> %
>>>>>>> 40gma
>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe, BA
>>>>>> cum laude Auburn University
>>>>>> e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
>>>>>> "If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for 
>>>>>> anything"
>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe
>>>>>> "Stand up for your rights"
>>>>>> Bob Marley
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> for
>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40ear
>>>> t
>>>> hlink.ne
>>>>>> t
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>> for
>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>
>>>>
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.
>>>> com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>> for
>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%
>>>> 4
>>>> 0gmail.c
>>>> om
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> for
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>>>> m
>>>> s2%40gma
>>>> il.com
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> %
>>>> 40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> 0
>>> gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>> 0
>> gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> .com
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> fur%40gmail.com


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