[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?
Chris Nusbaum
dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com
Sat Mar 23 00:39:45 UTC 2013
RJ,
Probably because they don't like anything the NFB does and because they
don't like the idea of the blind teaching the blind. I know that most of the
ACB-ers I've talked with hated the idea of a blind cane travel teacher. They
think it's unsafe. However, I had a blind cane travel teacher for 3 weeks at
the Louisiana Center for the Blind (LCB,) and you don't see me dead or even
injured. <Smile.>
Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair
Public Relations Committee
Maryland Association of Blind Students
Phone: (443) 547-2409
-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of RJ Sandefur
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 8:33 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
Not?
Why does the ACB hate this model of training? RJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
Not?
> Good evening everyone,
>
> It's also well documented that our ideas, philosophy, and methods
> are the most effective. Many agencies that once shunned us now embrace
> these positions and techniques and have implemented them in to their
programs.
> If
> it gets results who cares about the "NFB way or no way" horsepuckey!
> With state and federal belt tightening going on this trend will
> continue in to the future as agencies for the blind strive to get the
> best bang for their bucks.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Nusbaum" <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com>
> To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 6:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers
> or Not?
>
>
> Desiree,
>
> I know it's a figure of speech, but... lions' den? Is that what you
> see the NFB as?
>
> Chris
>
> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair
> Public Relations Committee
> Maryland Association of Blind Students
> Phone: (443) 547-2409
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> Desiree Oudinot
> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 7:27 PM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers
> or Not?
>
> I concur with your assessment, but don't expect to get any support
> from NFB members. I give you props for willingly entering the lion's
> den, though.
>
> On 3/22/13, kelby carlson <kelbycarlson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> My reservations are primarily attached to what I see as a "my way or
>> the highway" mentality. Despite protestations to the contrary, I get
>> the distinct feeling the NFB really believes it has found *the way*
>> of understanding and living with blindness. While the NFB's
>> particular methodology may work for some people--and has a good deal
>> to commend it--it's just not something I'm comfortable embracing. I
>> also detect a kind of insularity--a constant "looking in" if you
>> will--that is unhelpful. It's one thing to have a like-minded
>> community, but I sometimes feel as if there is a kind of feeling of
>> superiority over sighted people--or even non-Federationists! I have
>> felt distinctly out of the loop and out of place at some NFB events
>> because I wasn't "plugged in", didn't know the lingo, and didn't have
>> the kind of personal history that most other federationists seem to
>> have. I cannot use these experiences to discourage anyone from
>> joining the NFB, nor do I wish to. As I said previously in this
>> discussion, I am uncomfortable with arguments based on anecdotal
>> experience. This, then, is not an argument for or against the NFB--it
>> probably explains more about me than the Federation. I hope that helps
clarify a little.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> A good soldier is not measured by how many bullets they fire, but by
>>> their dedication to the cause. And a warrior doesn't need to be on
>>> the battlefield to prove his worth to society.
>>>
>>> On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Be a warrior. Be on the frong lines.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> kelby carlson
>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:52 PM
>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
>>>> Centers or Not?
>>>>
>>>> My perspective is similar to Desiree's. I have every intention of
>>>> getting more involved in blindness advocacy in some way. However, I
>>>> have reservations about all of the organizations there are. (It's
>>>> totally possible those reservations will go away some day.) For
>>>> now, I want to figure out what's going to work best for me as a
>>>> blind person and do what I can individually to help others as well.
>>>> There is great value in collectivity--no mistake--I'm just at a
>>>> place where that isn't how I believe i can best function. I do hope
>>>> to attend the convention one of these years, though, and my mind
>>>> could definitely change!
>>>>
>>>> I know I may come across sounding antagonistic toward the
>>>> Federation at times. I need to work harder on moderating what I say
>>>> and how I say it. But believe me when I say I see a ton of value in
>>>> the Federation and a great deal that I like and agree with.
>>>> Fundamentally, my philosophy is very similar (I think) to the NFB
>>>> philosophy. How it is worked out practically is sometimes where the
> rubber meets the road.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> While I won't speak for Peter, I'll give my own perspective on why
>>>>> I choose not to join the NFB or ACB.
>>>>> It's not about having a superiority complex. I don't consider
>>>>> myself to be better than anyone who is part of an organization.
>>>>> however, I like to draw my own conclusions, keeping politics and
>>>>> hidden agendas at arm's length. That's why my involvement only
>>>>> extends as far as listservs will take it. I feel that reading
>>>>> messages written by individual members is a much more unbiased,
>>>>> not to mention realistic view, of how the members of each
>>>>> organization live, work and interact in day-to-day life. At a
>>>>> meeting or convention, there's the expectation that one must carry
>>>>> themselves a certain way, say the right things, be inspired by all
>>>>> the right catch phrases. That's not limited to organizations for
>>>>> or of the blind, either, that's a fact of human nature. When you
>>>>> draw a large number of like-minded individuals together, and get
>>>>> them all to focus on one specific problem, proposition, or what
>>>>> have you, the people will either put their best or worst foot
>>>>> forward collectively. There is little time for individual thought
>>>>> processes, emotions, or personalities to take root and stand above
>>>>> the
> rest.
>>>>> I am, by nature, very reserved, maybe I could even be classified
>>>>> as a loner in a lot of ways. As I said, I think and draw
>>>>> conclusions best when there are no distractions, no bells and
>>>>> whistles so to speak. I take what is important to me, what fits in
>>>>> with my values and beliefs, and apply it to how I live my life. I
>>>>> don't honestly feel that I need to belong to anything to find my
>>>>> purpose, nor should I be told that I have no purpose unless I'm at
>>>>> the forefront of every high and low point in the organization's
>>>>> history. I am content with this, and I feel that I have a right to
>>>>> speak out about it, since it's a viewpoint which most who hold it
>>>>> would probably not be comfortable expressing for fear of being
>>>>> blamed and
> shamed.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/22/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hello, Peter. I have not followed this thread, but I have looked
>>>>>> at one or two of your posts. I think it is a shame that you will
>>>>>> not join the American Council of the Blind or the National
>>>>>> Federation of the Blind.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> suppose you believe there is some kind of superiority in being
>>>>>> what you might call an independent. Perhaps you are right, but
>>>>>> my own life experience indicates that having influence means
>>>>>> joining with others of like mind, exploring how you can
>>>>>> understand them and get them to understand you, and then acting
>>>>>> together in a concerted way to bring about the better world we all
say we want.
>>>>>> One popular buzzword you can't help but hear if you listen to
>>>>>> five minutes of the news is the word infrastructure, but there is
>>>>>> a lot to be said for having a way to effect the change we want.
>>>>>> For me this is the National Federation of the Blind. For others
>>>>>> it is the American Council of the Blind. Though the
>>>>>> organizations may disagree from time to time, one thing most all
>>>>>> of us share is that we have made a commitment to blind people
>>>>>> that extends beyond words. We are willing to put our time, our
>>>>>> energy, and our money into helping you, whether or not you
>>>>>> appreciate that we do so or ever raise a finger to help us. Much
>>>>>> distance remains for us to travel, and we certainly can use a willing
hand at the oars.
>>>>>> Thanks for reading.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> Peter Wolfe
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:52 PM
>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
>>>>>> Centers or Not?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In fact, the best method that anybody can teach you is
>>>>>> improvization not technique persay. It doesn't matter where you
>>>>>> get any information from on these things whether NFB, ACB, AFB,
>>>>>> Lion's Club's or wherever as long as you get whatever information.
>>>>>> Make-up yoru own techniques and sell a book for all I care as
>>>>>> long as it works for you that is all that counts. I could
>>>>>> careless as logn as you share the information with fellow blind
>>>>>> individuals that is my thhing that it shouldn't matter what
>>>>>> special interest group that your apart of cause we should all
>>>>>> work together in dealing with a rotten situation to make it
>>>>>> better. By the way, I'm never going to be part of NFB, ACB, AFB or
any of them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> sincerely,
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Kelby,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive answer.
>>>>>>> I can only tell you that I received training before there were
>>>>>>> NFB centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler and
>>>>>>> have generally managed my life successfully. However, in the
>>>>>>> work I have done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there are
>>>>>>> things I missed when I was trained. I think I have picked up
>>>>>>> much of what I missed primarily because of my association with
>>>>>>> others
> in the Federation.
>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>> has more to do with being confident enough to try new situations
>>>>>>> and knowing that I'll figure them out even if I don't know
>>>>>>> exactly how at the start, and less to do with how many inches I
>>>>>>> swing my cane left and right. In my opinion, and you may see
>>>>>>> this as a cop-out, it has less to do with comparing the quality
>>>>>>> of one's travel skills and more to do with whether one actually
>>>>>>> gets out and travels. These are not easy things to measure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the
>>>>>>> past, but I don't know how well you travel, for example. What I
>>>>>>> do know is that most of us are affected by the general attitudes
>>>>>>> that surround us in a way that is hard to measure. Even though
>>>>>>> we have some idea of what our capabilities are, unless we are
>>>>>>> exceptionally confident, we are going to tend to believe it if
>>>>>>> we are uncertain how we would accomplish a given thing and
>>>>>>> someone tells us we can't do it. I believe there was a time
>>>>>>> when there was a clear dividing line between NFB training
>>>>>>> centers and many other centers. We believed that we have to
>>>>>>> affect one's attitude toward blindness and oneself while most
>>>>>>> other centers believed that they need to concentrate on teaching
techniques.
>>>>>>> The common belief among some other centers was that changing
>>>>>>> attitudes toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was
>>>>>>> outside of their mandate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that
>>>>>>> there is a more general acceptance of the notion that one's
>>>>>>> belief in oneself is probably as important as the techniques
>>>>>>> used so some of the lines are not as clear as they once were.
>>>>>>> Still, I am skeptical of how well attitudes can be changed in a
>>>>>>> couple of months, but of course, it depends some upon the
>>>>>>> starting point of the individual.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not
>>>>>>> all good travelers. The person making the observation, who
>>>>>>> shall remain nameless, said that they felt a need to jump in and
>>>>>>> help but there were too many people to try to help all at once.
>>>>>>> However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people
>>>>>>> were getting where they needed to go without assistance, and
>>>>>>> that what appeared to be potentially frustrating to an observer
>>>>>>> was not the case for the traveler. This isn't meant to diminish
>>>>>>> the role of good travel techniques, only to make the point that
>>>>>>> there is more to travel than techniques. Having said all this,
>>>>>>> though, I also believe that what we have come to call structured
>>>>>>> discovery is a valid difference in how one learns to travel. In
>>>>>>> some ways, it takes longer to learn but provides a better base
>>>>>>> from which to work. Some of us who did not attend NFB training
>>>>>>> centers have adopted this approach on our own to some degree,
>>>>>>> but we would probably have adopted it more easily having had
>>>>>>> training in an NFB center.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
>>>>>>> Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have taken.
>>>>>>> Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem to
>>>>>>> be more open to the possibility that there are sometimes reasons
>>>>>>> for positions we might have taken. I won't bore you with the
>>>>>>> details of the time I almost missed a flight because I allowed
>>>>>>> myself to be talked into waiting for a cart, only to have one
>>>>>>> not be available for close to an hour, and how the airline
>>>>>>> employee refused to tell me which gate I needed to get to.
>>>>>>> Anyway, some of what you are hearing here would have been a part
>>>>>>> of your training at an NFB Center. You would likely have been
>>>>>>> given the chance to interact personally with people who had
>>>>>>> similar experiences so that you could ask them questions. You
>>>>>>> can get some of this information here, of course, but what about
>>>>>>> the many
> experiences that are not discussed?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one
>>>>>>> another.
>>>>>>> My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was,
>>>>>>> because it might be all right. I feel pretty certain that there
>>>>>>> are things you didn't get that you would have gotten had you
>>>>>>> spent time in one of our centers as indicated above, but I don't
>>>>>>> really think that is the point. The point is how can we help
>>>>>>> you now and how can you help us and other blind people? Are
>>>>>>> there things you are not comfortable doing that perhaps someone
>>>>>>> else here is comfortable doing? We could even explore here some
>>>>>>> of the things that many of us have overcome as a result of the
>>>>>>> encouragement from others.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly
>>>>>>> as I see them, isn't that always true? In the end, though, I
>>>>>>> don't care that much whether you believe there is a difference
>>>>>>> in training centers or not. I care more that you have what you
>>>>>>> need to get a job when you get out of college and that you are
>>>>>>> able to live as full a life as you can live, and I believe there
>>>>>>> are ways we can help you do that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from
>>>>>>>>federationists-that my local training simply must have been far,
>>>>>>>>far inferior to anything the NFB has. I have as of yet seen no
>>>>>>>>actual compelling evidence for this claim, and no one I know
>>>>>>>>well in the NFB has offered me convincing reasons as to why the
>>>>>>>>training I have is bad. (Those who don't know me can't offer
>>>>>>>>any reasons, as they don't know my context.) If NFB mobility is
>>>>>>>>so wonderful, I wish they would allow people interested to pay
>>>>>>>>for a little instruction to get a sense of their methodology in
>>>>>>>>real space time rather than forcing people to commit to six to
>>>>>>>>nine months.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Kelby
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu,
>>>>>>>>21 Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
>>>>>>>>Scenario
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Well we all need good mobility skills. A dog is not a
>>>>>>>>replacement for mobility skills. Whether you use a cane,
>>>>>>>>sighted guide, or a guide dog.
>>>>>>>>If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get
>>>>>>>>locally then you don't know what you are missing.
>>>>>>>>Never going to them myself. I have seen what someone with no
>>>>>>>>knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own
>>>>>>>>areas, and come back from our schools with the confidence and
>>>>>>>>the mobility and the other services that are given there.
>>>>>>>>If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
>>>>>>>>philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and
>>>>>>>>then a dog. I have not been blind all my life. I lost my
>>>>>>>>vision as an adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills,
>>>>>>>>my dog doesn't know when to cross the street, I have to give
>>>>>>>>him the direction to do so.
>>>>>>>>Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to
>>>>>>>>mention when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will
>>>>>>>>either not want to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or
>>>>>>>>in between a dog, or whatever the issues are. That I know the
>>>>>>>>skills to get me where I want to go whether it is with my Maxx
>>>>>>>>or not.
>>>>>>>>Have a great night all.
>>>>>>>>Take care and god bless.
>>>>>>>>Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with
>>>>>>>>kindness to one another; and with the philosophy of the great
organization.
>>>>>>>>Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the
>>>>>>>>Way in Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel
>>>>>>>>Advocate!Cheryl Echevarria,
>>>>>>>>Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@ech
>>>>>>>>e
>>>>>>>>varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
>>>>>>>>Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
>>>>>>>>Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST
>>>>>>>>- #1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
>>>>>>>>Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser
>>>>>>>>for the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other
> resources.
>>>>>>>>Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6,
>>>>>>>>2013 and vacation must be traveled no later than
>>>>>>>>12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
>>>>>>>>Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families
>>>>>>>>and friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the
>>>>>>>>affiliate as well. You do not need to be a member of the
>>>>>>>>NFB.org, just book through us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
>>>>>>>> From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
>>>>>>>> Scenario
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'll echo what Cindysaid. There isno way I would give up that
>>>>>>>>much time for mobility training I already had purely for the
>>>>>>>>purpose of getting a dog. ZPeter said, I would go somewhere
>>>>>>>>else
> straightaway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kelby
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent:
>>>>>>>>Thu,
>>>>>>>>21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
>>>>>>>>Scenario
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a
>>>>>>>> real lack of quality training for blind people. I don't really
>>>>>>>> think that's the case with guide schools. There are some
>>>>>>>> schools which do things differently from others. But, there
>>>>>>>> are people who prefer one approach over another. I don't
>>>>>>>> really think that NFB needs to get involved with guide dog
training.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the
>>>>>>>>nine month NFB center training, first, this will severely limit
>>>>>>>>the number of people choosing to have training from an NFB
>>>>>>>>guide dog school, should one be started. I don't know to many
>>>>>>>>people who can give up a year of their life to get a guide dog.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
>>>>>>>> Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in
>>>>>>>>the past so she knows where I'm coming from. In line with her
>>>>>>>>comments below I'd like to suggest a possible scenario for an
>>>>>>>>NFB-run guide dog program:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since we all ready have three orientation and
>>>>>>>>adjustment centers for blind adults and youth there would be no
>>>>>>>>need for a facility for housing students in training to be
constructed.
>>>>>>>>Hold on folks.
>>>>>>>>Students
>>>>>>>> wishing to
>>>>>>>> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
>>>>>>>>complete the
>>>>>>>> 6-9 month program at one of the centers. During the student's
>>>>>>>>"Bootcamp training" the center has an opportunity to come to
>>>>>>>>know the student inside-out and will be able to furnish lots
>>>>>>>>of background information on the applicant to the guide dog unit.
>>>>>>>>Unlike current guide dog programs that must rely on references
>>>>>>>>and other information that may be true or false the NFB guide
>>>>>>>>dog program will have all ready had accurate information
>>>>>>>>gathered for them by the training center and can be assured
>>>>>>>>that the applicant is a suitable candidate for a dog.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This approach will also assure the guide dog program that
>>>>>>>>the student is up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable
>>>>>>>>of transferring them to the use of a dog. Students that
>>>>>>>>successfully complete the cane travel component of their
>>>>>>>>immersion training would be eligible to receive a dog.
>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
>>>>>>>>other aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted
>>>>>>>>time students often experience when at guide dog training
> facilities.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required
>>>>>>>> to wear sleep shades as they do when taking other center
>>>>>>>> classes and participating in designated center activities.
>>>>>>>> Like students who undergo cane travel instruction at our
>>>>>>>> centers those training with dogs would be encouraged to travel
>>>>>>>> on their own prior to completion of the training. In the
>>>>>>>> beginning they could be accompanied by an experienced guide dog
>>>>>>>> user/trainer but would be expected to travel and complete "Monster
Routes"
>>>>>>>> entirely on their own using their dogs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it
>>>>>>>> would operate similar to those of current guide dog programs.
>>>>>>>> The program would operate its own breeding component or obtain
>>>>>>>> suitable dogs from donations. The usual period of
>>>>>>>> socialization and puppy raising wouldn't be that much different
>>>>>>>> than is done by current guide dog programs. The dogs would
>>>>>>>> return for a period of training when they're taught how to
>>>>>>>> guide a blind person. Once the dogs are ready to be pared with
>>>>>>>> their future blind owner they along with an instructor would be
>>>>>>>> sent to the center where the student receiving the dog will be
trained.
>>>>>>>> Alternatively the NFB guide dog program could operate from one
>>>>>>>> of our centers. Those wishing to obtain dogs once their
>>>>>>>> "Bootcamp"
>>>>>>>> training is complete would transfer to that center for training
>>>>>>>> with the dog. Using all ready existing facilities to house
>>>>>>>> students in training is one way to reduce the cost of training
>>>>>>>> guide
> dogs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run
>>>>>>>> guide dog program could work but I'm sure others would have
>>>>>>>> additional ideas. If it's to happen at all the discussion must
>>>>>>>> continue at a cost of 0 to participants. All the best.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold. First I
>>>>>>>>would like to see a more in depth background investigation of
>>>>>>>>the blind applicant. Do a criminal background check, require
>>>>>>>>more references, ask the neighbors...whatever it takes.
>>>>>>>>Adoption agencies place children into homes surely we can
>>>>>>>>figure out a way to more accurately know what sort of
>>>>>>>>situation the dog will be placed into.
>>>>>>>>Secondly, I think there are already agencies in place for
>>>>>>>>dealing with animal abuse, the police and animal control. I
>>>>>>>>don't see any reason why these agencies can't be used in cases
>>>>>>>>of neglect or abuse.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of
>>>>>>>>the dog in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid
> point.
>>>>>>>>We
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> to stop expecting everything for nothing. I like the Seeing
>>>>>>>>Eye's concept of charging the student. I do wish that the cost
>>>>>>>>had increased over the years with the cost of living. It has
>>>>>>>>been $150 since the beginning of the school in 1928. I think
>>>>>>>>that's the right year.
>>>>>>>> $150
>>>>>>>> was a very different sum of money then and now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
>>>>>>>> substantially lower sums of money than $60,000. If you look at
>>>>>>>> the various guide dog programs and how much each claims it
>>>>>>>> costs to train a dog, the numbers vary widely. All those
>>>>>>>> buildings, fancy food, excessive equipment and other niceties cost
money.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>info for
>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%
>>>>>>>>4
>>>>>>>> 0satx.rr.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>info for
>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>0
>>>>>>>> verizon.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>info for blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbycarls
>>>>>>>>o
>>>>>>>> n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>o
>>>>>>>>n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>b
>>>>>>>>son%4
>>>>>>>>0visi.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
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>>>>>>> info for
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>>>>>>> %
>>>>>>> 40gma
>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe, BA
>>>>>> cum laude Auburn University
>>>>>> e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
>>>>>> "If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for
>>>>>> anything"
>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe
>>>>>> "Stand up for your rights"
>>>>>> Bob Marley
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> for
>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40ear
>>>> t
>>>> hlink.ne
>>>>>> t
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>
>>>>
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.
>>>> com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>
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>>>> 4
>>>> 0gmail.c
>>>> om
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> m
>>>> s2%40gma
>>>> il.com
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> %
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>>>>
>>>
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>>> 0
>>> gmail.com
>>>
>>
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>>
>
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