[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?
Desiree Oudinot
turtlepower17 at gmail.com
Sat Mar 23 04:17:24 UTC 2013
Fair enough, Mike. I can understand where you're coming from. To be
fair, and none of you guys would know this since you don't know me
personally, I often use that phrase, stepping into the lion's den,
when I sense that a topic is becoming heated. In my life, I have
rarely witnessed constructive debating or criticism. I always
associate disagreement with argument, which is not always the case,
but that's just a bad habit of mine to say that particular phrase
because it is what i've personally felt like more often than not. 99%
of the time, it has absolutely nothing to do with the NFB, but with
other situations that occur in my life.
Having said that, the incident I spoke of happened a few years ago,
and I have since looked into various things to do with the NFB, and
spoken to several members that I know. While I do feel that several
things in the NFB's philosophy clash with me, I'm not going to drag
them out on a public list. There would be no point in that, since I've
already settled my disagreements in my own mind anyhow by deciding not
to join.
On 3/22/13, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
> Desiree:
>
> With respect, although all of us must make generalizations from that with
> which we have had experience, it would seem just as unfair to use such
> loaded phrases as "the lions' den" to describe our discussions as it is to
> use unexamined the phraseology of NFB propaganda (and I think there is no
> dishonor in propaganda).
>
> Mike
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Desiree
> Oudinot
> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 4:27 PM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
> Not?
>
> I concur with your assessment, but don't expect to get any support
> from NFB members. I give you props for willingly entering the lion's
> den, though.
>
> On 3/22/13, kelby carlson <kelbycarlson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> My reservations are primarily attached to what I see as a "my way or
>> the highway" mentality. Despite protestations to the contrary, I get
>> the distinct feeling the NFB really believes it has found *the way* of
>> understanding and living with blindness. While the NFB's particular
>> methodology may work for some people--and has a good deal to commend
>> it--it's just not something I'm comfortable embracing. I also detect a
>> kind of insularity--a constant "looking in" if you will--that is
>> unhelpful. It's one thing to have a like-minded community, but I
>> sometimes feel as if there is a kind of feeling of superiority over
>> sighted people--or even non-Federationists! I have felt distinctly out
>> of the loop and out of place at some NFB events because I wasn't
>> "plugged in", didn't know the lingo, and didn't have the kind of
>> personal history that most other federationists seem to have. I cannot
>> use these experiences to discourage anyone from joining the NFB, nor
>> do I wish to. As I said previously in this discussion, I am
>> uncomfortable with arguments based on anecdotal experience. This,
>> then, is not an argument for or against the NFB--it probably explains
>> more about me than the Federation. I hope that helps clarify a little.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> A good soldier is not measured by how many bullets they fire, but by
>>> their dedication to the cause. And a warrior doesn't need to be on the
>>> battlefield to prove his worth to society.
>>>
>>> On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Be a warrior. Be on the frong lines.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of kelby
>>>> carlson
>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:52 PM
>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers
>>>> or
>>>> Not?
>>>>
>>>> My perspective is similar to Desiree's. I have every intention of
>>>> getting more involved in blindness advocacy in some way. However, I
>>>> have reservations about all of the organizations there are. (It's
>>>> totally possible those reservations will go away some day.) For now, I
>>>> want to figure out what's going to work best for me as a blind person
>>>> and do what I can individually to help others as well. There is great
>>>> value in collectivity--no mistake--I'm just at a place where that
>>>> isn't how I believe i can best function. I do hope to attend the
>>>> convention one of these years, though, and my mind could definitely
>>>> change!
>>>>
>>>> I know I may come across sounding antagonistic toward the Federation
>>>> at times. I need to work harder on moderating what I say and how I say
>>>> it. But believe me when I say I see a ton of value in the Federation
>>>> and a great deal that I like and agree with. Fundamentally, my
>>>> philosophy is very similar (I think) to the NFB philosophy. How it is
>>>> worked out practically is sometimes where the rubber meets the road.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> While I won't speak for Peter, I'll give my own perspective on why I
>>>>> choose not to join the NFB or ACB.
>>>>> It's not about having a superiority complex. I don't consider myself
>>>>> to be better than anyone who is part of an organization. however, I
>>>>> like to draw my own conclusions, keeping politics and hidden agendas
>>>>> at arm's length. That's why my involvement only extends as far as
>>>>> listservs will take it. I feel that reading messages written by
>>>>> individual members is a much more unbiased, not to mention realistic
>>>>> view, of how the members of each organization live, work and interact
>>>>> in day-to-day life. At a meeting or convention, there's the
>>>>> expectation that one must carry themselves a certain way, say the
>>>>> right things, be inspired by all the right catch phrases. That's not
>>>>> limited to organizations for or of the blind, either, that's a fact of
>>>>> human nature. When you draw a large number of like-minded individuals
>>>>> together, and get them all to focus on one specific problem,
>>>>> proposition, or what have you, the people will either put their best
>>>>> or worst foot forward collectively. There is little time for
>>>>> individual thought processes, emotions, or personalities to take root
>>>>> and stand above the rest.
>>>>> I am, by nature, very reserved, maybe I could even be classified as a
>>>>> loner in a lot of ways. As I said, I think and draw conclusions best
>>>>> when there are no distractions, no bells and whistles so to speak. I
>>>>> take what is important to me, what fits in with my values and beliefs,
>>>>> and apply it to how I live my life. I don't honestly feel that I need
>>>>> to belong to anything to find my purpose, nor should I be told that I
>>>>> have no purpose unless I'm at the forefront of every high and low
>>>>> point in the organization's history. I am content with this, and I
>>>>> feel that I have a right to speak out about it, since it's a viewpoint
>>>>> which most who hold it would probably not be comfortable expressing
>>>>> for fear of being blamed and shamed.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/22/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hello, Peter. I have not followed this thread, but I have looked at
>>>>>> one
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> two of your posts. I think it is a shame that you will not join the
>>>>>> American Council of the Blind or the National Federation of the
>>>>>> Blind.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> suppose you believe there is some kind of superiority in being what
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> might call an independent. Perhaps you are right, but my own life
>>>>>> experience indicates that having influence means joining with others
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> like
>>>>>> mind, exploring how you can understand them and get them to
>>>>>> understand
>>>>>> you,
>>>>>> and then acting together in a concerted way to bring about the better
>>>>>> world
>>>>>> we all say we want. One popular buzzword you can't help but hear if
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> listen to five minutes of the news is the word infrastructure, but
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> a lot to be said for having a way to effect the change we want. For
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> is the National Federation of the Blind. For others it is the
>>>>>> American
>>>>>> Council of the Blind. Though the organizations may disagree from
>>>>>> time
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> time, one thing most all of us share is that we have made a
>>>>>> commitment
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> blind people that extends beyond words. We are willing to put our
>>>>>> time,
>>>>>> our
>>>>>> energy, and our money into helping you, whether or not you appreciate
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> we do so or ever raise a finger to help us. Much distance remains for
>>>>>> us
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> travel, and we certainly can use a willing hand at the oars. Thanks
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> reading.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>> Wolfe
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:52 PM
>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> Not?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In fact, the best method that anybody can teach you is
>>>>>> improvization
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> technique persay. It doesn't matter where you get any information
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> these things whether NFB, ACB, AFB, Lion's Club's or wherever as long
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> get whatever information. Make-up yoru own techniques and sell a book
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> all I care as long as it works for you that is all that counts. I
>>>>>> could
>>>>>> careless as logn as you share the information with fellow blind
>>>>>> individuals
>>>>>> that is my thhing that it shouldn't matter what special interest
>>>>>> group
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> your apart of cause we should all work together in dealing with a
>>>>>> rotten
>>>>>> situation to make it better. By the way, I'm never going to be part
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> NFB,
>>>>>> ACB, AFB or any of them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> sincerely,
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Kelby,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive answer. I
>>>>>>> can only tell you that I received training before there were NFB
>>>>>>> centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler and have
>>>>>>> generally managed my life successfully. However, in the work I have
>>>>>>> done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there are things I missed
>>>>>>> when I was trained. I think I have picked up much of what I missed
>>>>>>> primarily because of my association with others in the Federation.
>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>> has more to do with being confident enough to try new situations and
>>>>>>> knowing that I'll figure them out even if I don't know exactly how
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> the start, and less to do with how many inches I swing my cane left
>>>>>>> and right. In my opinion, and you may see this as a cop-out, it has
>>>>>>> less to do with comparing the quality of one's travel skills and
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> to do with whether one actually gets out and travels. These are not
>>>>>>> easy things to measure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the past,
>>>>>>> but I don't know how well you travel, for example. What I do know
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> that most of us are affected by the general attitudes that surround
>>>>>>> us
>>>>>>> in a way that is hard to measure. Even though we have some idea of
>>>>>>> what our capabilities are, unless we are exceptionally confident, we
>>>>>>> are going to tend to believe it if we are uncertain how we would
>>>>>>> accomplish a given thing and someone tells us we can't do it. I
>>>>>>> believe there was a time when there was a clear dividing line
>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>> NFB training centers and many other centers. We believed that we
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> to affect one's attitude toward blindness and oneself while most
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> centers believed that they need to concentrate on teaching
>>>>>>> techniques.
>>>>>>> The common belief among some other centers was that changing
>>>>>>> attitudes
>>>>>>> toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was outside of their
>>>>>>> mandate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that there
>>>>>>> is a more general acceptance of the notion that one's belief in
>>>>>>> oneself is probably as important as the techniques used so some of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> lines are not as clear as they once were. Still, I am skeptical of
>>>>>>> how well attitudes can be changed in a couple of months, but of
>>>>>>> course, it depends some upon the starting point of the individual.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not all
>>>>>>> good travelers. The person making the observation, who shall remain
>>>>>>> nameless, said that they felt a need to jump in and help but there
>>>>>>> were too many people to try to help all at once.
>>>>>>> However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people were
>>>>>>> getting where they needed to go without assistance, and that what
>>>>>>> appeared to be potentially frustrating to an observer was not the
>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>> for the traveler. This isn't meant to diminish the role of good
>>>>>>> travel techniques, only to make the point that there is more to
>>>>>>> travel
>>>>>>> than techniques. Having said all this, though, I also believe that
>>>>>>> what we have come to call structured discovery is a valid difference
>>>>>>> in how one learns to travel. In some ways, it takes longer to learn
>>>>>>> but provides a better base from which to work. Some of us who did
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> attend NFB training centers have adopted this approach on our own to
>>>>>>> some degree, but we would probably have adopted it more easily
>>>>>>> having
>>>>>>> had training in an NFB center.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
>>>>>>> Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have taken.
>>>>>>> Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem to be
>>>>>>> more open to the possibility that there are sometimes reasons for
>>>>>>> positions we might have taken. I won't bore you with the details of
>>>>>>> the time I almost missed a flight because I allowed myself to be
>>>>>>> talked into waiting for a cart, only to have one not be available
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> close to an hour, and how the airline employee refused to tell me
>>>>>>> which gate I needed to get to. Anyway, some of what you are hearing
>>>>>>> here would have been a part of your training at an NFB Center. You
>>>>>>> would likely have been given the chance to interact personally with
>>>>>>> people who had similar experiences so that you could ask them
>>>>>>> questions. You can get some of this information here, of course,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> what about the many experiences that are not discussed?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one
>>>>>>> another.
>>>>>>> My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was, because it
>>>>>>> might be all right. I feel pretty certain that there are things you
>>>>>>> didn't get that you would have gotten had you spent time in one of
>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>> centers as indicated above, but I don't really think that is the
>>>>>>> point. The point is how can we help you now and how can you help us
>>>>>>> and other blind people? Are there things you are not comfortable
>>>>>>> doing that perhaps someone else here is comfortable doing? We could
>>>>>>> even explore here some of the things that many of us have overcome
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> a result of the encouragement from others.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly as I
>>>>>>> see them, isn't that always true? In the end, though, I don't care
>>>>>>> that much whether you believe there is a difference in training
>>>>>>> centers or not. I care more that you have what you need to get a
>>>>>>> job
>>>>>>> when you get out of college and that you are able to live as full a
>>>>>>> life as you can live, and I believe there are ways we can help you
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from federationists-that
>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>local training simply must have been far, far inferior to anything
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>NFB has. I have as of yet seen no actual compelling evidence for
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>claim, and no one I know well in the NFB has offered me convincing
>>>>>>>>reasons as to why the training I have is bad. (Those who don't know
>>>>>>>>me can't offer any reasons, as they don't know my context.) If NFB
>>>>>>>>mobility is so wonderful, I wish they would allow people interested
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>pay for a little instruction to get a sense of their methodology in
>>>>>>>>real space time rather than forcing people to commit to six to nine
>>>>>>>>months.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Kelby
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 21
>>>>>>>>Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Well we all need good mobility skills. A dog is not a replacement
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>mobility skills. Whether you use a cane, sighted guide, or a guide
>>>>>>>>dog.
>>>>>>>>If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get
>>>>>>>> locally
>>>>>>>>then you don't know what you are missing.
>>>>>>>>Never going to them myself. I have seen what someone with no
>>>>>>>>knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own areas,
>>>>>>>>and come back from our schools with the confidence and the mobility
>>>>>>>>and the other services that are given there.
>>>>>>>>If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
>>>>>>>>philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and then a
>>>>>>>>dog. I have not been blind all my life. I lost my vision as an
>>>>>>>>adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills, my dog doesn't
>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>when to cross the street, I have to give him the direction to do so.
>>>>>>>>Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to
>>>>>>>> mention
>>>>>>>>when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will either not
>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or in between a dog, or
>>>>>>>>whatever the issues are. That I know the skills to get me where I
>>>>>>>>want to go whether it is with my Maxx or not.
>>>>>>>>Have a great night all.
>>>>>>>>Take care and god bless.
>>>>>>>>Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with kindness to
>>>>>>>>one another; and with the philosophy of the great organization.
>>>>>>>>Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the Way
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel Advocate!Cheryl
>>>>>>>>Echevarria,
>>>>>>>>Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
>>>>>>>>varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
>>>>>>>>Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
>>>>>>>>Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST -
>>>>>>>>#1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
>>>>>>>>Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser for
>>>>>>>>the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other resources.
>>>>>>>>Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6, 2013
>>>>>>>>and vacation must be traveled no later than
>>>>>>>>12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
>>>>>>>>Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families and
>>>>>>>>friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the
>>>>>>>> affiliate
>>>>>>>>as well. You do not need to be a member of the NFB.org, just book
>>>>>>>>through us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
>>>>>>>> From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'll echo what Cindysaid. There isno way I would give up that
>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>time for mobility training I already had purely for the purpose of
>>>>>>>>getting a dog. ZPeter said, I would go somewhere else
>>>>>>>> straightaway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kelby
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu,
>>>>>>>>21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a real
>>>>>>>> lack of quality training for blind people. I don't really think
>>>>>>>> that's the case with guide schools. There are some schools which
>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> things differently from others. But, there are people who prefer
>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>> approach over another. I don't really think that NFB needs to get
>>>>>>>> involved with guide dog training.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the nine
>>>>>>>>month NFB center training, first, this will severely limit the
>>>>>>>> number
>>>>>>>>of people choosing to have training from an NFB guide dog school,
>>>>>>>>should one be started. I don't know to many people who can give
>>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>>>a year of their life to get a guide dog.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
>>>>>>>> Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the
>>>>>>>>past so she knows where I'm coming from. In line with her comments
>>>>>>>>below I'd like to suggest a possible scenario for an NFB-run guide
>>>>>>>>dog program:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment
>>>>>>>>centers for blind adults and youth there would be no need for a
>>>>>>>>facility for housing students in training to be constructed. Hold
>>>>>>>>on folks.
>>>>>>>>Students
>>>>>>>> wishing to
>>>>>>>> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
>>>>>>>>complete the
>>>>>>>> 6-9 month program at one of the centers. During the student's
>>>>>>>>"Bootcamp training" the center has an opportunity to come to know
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>student inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of background
>>>>>>>>information on the applicant to the guide dog unit. Unlike current
>>>>>>>>guide dog programs that must rely on references and other
>>>>>>>>information that may be true or false the NFB guide dog program
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>have all ready had accurate information gathered for them by the
>>>>>>>>training center and can be assured that the applicant is a
>>>>>>>> suitable
>>>>>>>>candidate for a dog.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This approach will also assure the guide dog program that the
>>>>>>>>student is up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable of
>>>>>>>>transferring them to the use of a dog. Students that successfully
>>>>>>>>complete the cane travel component of their immersion training
>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>be eligible to receive a dog.
>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
>>>>>>>>other aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted
>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>students often experience when at guide dog training facilities.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required to
>>>>>>>> wear sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes and
>>>>>>>> participating in designated center activities. Like students who
>>>>>>>> undergo cane travel instruction at our centers those training with
>>>>>>>> dogs would be encouraged to travel on their own prior to completion
>>>>>>>> of the training. In the beginning they could be accompanied by an
>>>>>>>> experienced guide dog user/trainer but would be expected to travel
>>>>>>>> and complete "Monster Routes" entirely on their own using their
>>>>>>>> dogs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would
>>>>>>>> operate similar to those of current guide dog programs. The
>>>>>>>> program
>>>>>>>> would operate its own breeding component or obtain suitable dogs
>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>> donations. The usual period of socialization and puppy raising
>>>>>>>> wouldn't be that much different than is done by current guide dog
>>>>>>>> programs. The dogs would return for a period of training when
>>>>>>>> they're taught how to guide a blind person. Once the dogs are
>>>>>>>> ready
>>>>>>>> to be pared with their future blind owner they along with an
>>>>>>>> instructor would be sent to the center where the student receiving
>>>>>>>> the dog will be trained. Alternatively the NFB guide dog program
>>>>>>>> could operate from one of our centers. Those wishing to obtain
>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>> once their "Bootcamp"
>>>>>>>> training is complete would transfer to that center for training
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> the dog. Using all ready existing facilities to house students in
>>>>>>>> training is one way to reduce the cost of training guide dogs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run guide
>>>>>>>> dog program could work but I'm sure others would have additional
>>>>>>>> ideas. If it's to happen at all the discussion must continue at a
>>>>>>>> cost of 0 to participants. All the best.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold. First I
>>>>>>>>would like to see a more in depth background investigation of the
>>>>>>>>blind applicant. Do a criminal background check, require more
>>>>>>>>references, ask the neighbors...whatever it takes. Adoption
>>>>>>>> agencies
>>>>>>>>place children into homes surely we can figure out a way to more
>>>>>>>>accurately know what sort of situation the dog will be placed
>>>>>>>> into.
>>>>>>>>Secondly, I think there are already agencies in place for dealing
>>>>>>>>with animal abuse, the police and animal control. I don't see any
>>>>>>>>reason why these agencies can't be used in cases of neglect or
>>>>>>>>abuse.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>dog in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid point.
>>>>>>>>We
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> to stop expecting everything for nothing. I like the Seeing Eye's
>>>>>>>>concept of charging the student. I do wish that the cost had
>>>>>>>>increased over the years with the cost of living. It has been $150
>>>>>>>>since the beginning of the school in 1928. I think that's the
>>>>>>>> right
>>>>>>>>year.
>>>>>>>> $150
>>>>>>>> was a very different sum of money then and now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
>>>>>>>> substantially lower sums of money than $60,000. If you look at the
>>>>>>>> various guide dog programs and how much each claims it costs to
>>>>>>>> train
>>>>>>>> a dog, the numbers vary widely. All those buildings, fancy food,
>>>>>>>> excessive equipment and other niceties cost money.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%4
>>>>>>>> 0satx.rr.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>for blindtlk:
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>>>>>>>> n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/cherylandma
>>>>>>>>xx%40hotmail.com
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%
> 4
>>>>>>>>0visi.com
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
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> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/yogabare13%40gma
>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe, BA
>>>>>> cum laude Auburn University
>>>>>> e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
>>>>>> "If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for
>>>>>> anything"
>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe
>>>>>> "Stand up for your rights"
>>>>>> Bob Marley
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> blindtlk:
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>>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthlink.ne
>>>>>> t
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.
>>>> com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.c
>>>> om
>>>>>
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>>>>
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> com
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> om
>>>
>>
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>>
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> com
>>
>
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