[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?

[Mike Freeman]

I'm afraid that I concur with you that almost *all* lists generate far more
heat than light -- unless their moderators clamp down so hard that the lists
become boring as hell!

But I confess to sometimes wondering why some individuals keep reading our
lists when they find so much objectionable about us. And no, this is not an
invitation to leave. It's just an expression, as King Mongkut put it in "the
King and I", "is a puzzlement!".

Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Desiree
Oudinot
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 9:17 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
Not?

Fair enough, Mike. I can understand where you're coming from. To be
fair, and none of you guys would know this since you don't know me
personally, I often use that phrase, stepping into the lion's den,
when I sense that a topic is becoming heated. In my life, I have
rarely witnessed constructive debating or criticism. I always
associate disagreement with argument, which is not always the case,
but that's just a bad habit of mine to say that particular phrase
because it is what i've personally felt like more often than not. 99%
of the time, it has absolutely nothing to do with the NFB, but with
other situations that occur in my life.
Having said that, the incident I spoke of happened a few years ago,
and I have since looked into various things to do with the NFB, and
spoken to several members that I know. While I do feel that several
things in the NFB's philosophy clash with me, I'm not going to drag
them out on a public list. There would be no point in that, since I've
already settled my disagreements in my own mind anyhow by deciding not
to join.

On 3/22/13, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
> Desiree:
>
> With respect, although all of us must make generalizations from that with
> which we have had experience, it would seem just as unfair to use such
> loaded phrases as "the lions' den" to describe our discussions as it is to
> use unexamined the phraseology of NFB propaganda (and I think there is no
> dishonor in propaganda).
>
> Mike
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Desiree
> Oudinot
> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 4:27 PM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
> Not?
>
> I concur with your assessment, but don't expect to get any support
> from NFB members. I give you props for willingly entering the lion's
> den, though.
>
> On 3/22/13, kelby carlson <kelbycarlson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> My reservations are primarily attached to what I see as a "my way or
>> the highway" mentality. Despite protestations to the contrary, I get
>> the distinct feeling the NFB really believes it has found *the way* of
>> understanding and living with blindness. While the NFB's particular
>> methodology may work for some people--and has a good deal to commend
>> it--it's just not something I'm comfortable embracing. I also detect a
>> kind of insularity--a constant "looking in" if you will--that is
>> unhelpful. It's one thing to have a like-minded community, but I
>> sometimes feel as if there is a kind of feeling of superiority over
>> sighted people--or even non-Federationists! I have felt distinctly out
>> of the loop and out of place at some NFB events because I wasn't
>> "plugged in", didn't know the lingo, and didn't have the kind of
>> personal history that most other federationists seem to have. I cannot
>> use these experiences to discourage anyone from joining the NFB, nor
>> do I wish to. As I said previously in this discussion, I am
>> uncomfortable with arguments based on anecdotal experience. This,
>> then, is not an argument for or against the NFB--it probably explains
>> more about me than the Federation. I hope that helps clarify a little.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> A good soldier is not measured by how many bullets they fire, but by
>>> their dedication to the cause. And a warrior doesn't need to be on the
>>> battlefield to prove his worth to society.
>>>
>>> On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Be a warrior.  Be on the frong lines.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of kelby
>>>> carlson
>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:52 PM
>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers
>>>> or
>>>> Not?
>>>>
>>>> My perspective is similar to Desiree's. I have every intention of
>>>> getting more involved in blindness advocacy in some way. However, I
>>>> have reservations about all of the organizations there are. (It's
>>>> totally possible those reservations will go away some day.) For now, I
>>>> want to figure out what's going to work best for me as a blind person
>>>> and do what I can individually to help others as well. There is great
>>>> value in collectivity--no mistake--I'm just at a place where that
>>>> isn't how I believe i can best function. I do hope to attend the
>>>> convention one of these years, though, and my mind could definitely
>>>> change!
>>>>
>>>> I know I may come across sounding antagonistic toward the Federation
>>>> at times. I need to work harder on moderating what I say and how I say
>>>> it. But believe me when I say I see a ton of value in the Federation
>>>> and a great deal that I like and agree with. Fundamentally, my
>>>> philosophy is very similar (I think) to the NFB philosophy. How it is
>>>> worked out practically is sometimes where the rubber meets the road.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> While I won't speak for Peter, I'll give my own perspective on why I
>>>>> choose not to join the NFB or ACB.
>>>>> It's not about having a superiority complex. I don't consider myself
>>>>> to be better than anyone who is part of an organization. however, I
>>>>> like to draw my own conclusions, keeping politics and hidden agendas
>>>>> at arm's length. That's why my involvement only extends as far as
>>>>> listservs will take it. I feel that reading messages written by
>>>>> individual members is a much more unbiased, not to mention realistic
>>>>> view, of how the members of each organization live, work and interact
>>>>> in day-to-day life. At a meeting or convention, there's the
>>>>> expectation that one must carry themselves a certain way, say the
>>>>> right things, be inspired by all the right catch phrases. That's not
>>>>> limited to organizations for or of the blind, either, that's a fact of
>>>>> human nature. When you draw a large number of like-minded individuals
>>>>> together, and get them all to focus on one specific problem,
>>>>> proposition, or what have you, the people will either put their best
>>>>> or worst foot forward collectively. There is little time for
>>>>> individual thought processes, emotions, or personalities to take root
>>>>> and stand above the rest.
>>>>> I am, by nature, very reserved, maybe I could even be classified as a
>>>>> loner in a lot of ways. As I said, I think and draw conclusions best
>>>>> when there are no distractions, no bells and whistles so to speak. I
>>>>> take what is important to me, what fits in with my values and beliefs,
>>>>> and apply it to how I live my life. I don't honestly feel that I need
>>>>> to belong to anything to find my purpose, nor should I be told that I
>>>>> have no purpose unless I'm at the forefront of every high and low
>>>>> point in the organization's history. I am content with this, and I
>>>>> feel that I have a right to speak out about it, since it's a viewpoint
>>>>> which most who hold it would probably not be comfortable expressing
>>>>> for fear of being blamed and shamed.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/22/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hello, Peter.  I have not followed this thread, but I have looked at
>>>>>> one
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> two of your posts.  I think it is a shame that you will not join the
>>>>>> American Council of the Blind or the National Federation of the
>>>>>> Blind.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> suppose you believe there is some kind of superiority in being what
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> might call an independent.  Perhaps you are right, but my own life
>>>>>> experience indicates that having influence means joining with others
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> like
>>>>>> mind, exploring how you can understand them and get them to
>>>>>> understand
>>>>>> you,
>>>>>> and then acting together in a concerted way to bring about the better
>>>>>> world
>>>>>> we all say we want.  One popular buzzword you can't help but hear if
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> listen to five minutes of the news is the word infrastructure, but
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> a lot to be said for having a way to effect the change we want.  For
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> is the National Federation of the Blind.  For others it is the
>>>>>> American
>>>>>> Council of the Blind.  Though the organizations may disagree from
>>>>>> time
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> time, one thing most all of us share is that we have made a
>>>>>> commitment
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> blind people that extends beyond words.  We are willing to put our
>>>>>> time,
>>>>>> our
>>>>>> energy, and our money into helping you, whether or not you appreciate
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> we do so or ever raise a finger to help us. Much distance remains for
>>>>>> us
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> travel, and we certainly can use a willing hand at the oars. Thanks
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> reading.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>> Wolfe
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:52 PM
>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> Not?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     In fact, the best method that anybody can teach you is
>>>>>> improvization
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> technique persay. It doesn't matter where you get any information
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> these things whether NFB, ACB, AFB, Lion's Club's or wherever as long
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> get whatever information. Make-up yoru own techniques and sell a book
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> all I care as long as it works for you that is all that counts. I
>>>>>> could
>>>>>> careless as logn as you share the information with fellow blind
>>>>>> individuals
>>>>>> that is my thhing that it shouldn't matter what special interest
>>>>>> group
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> your apart of cause we should all work together in dealing with a
>>>>>> rotten
>>>>>> situation to make it better. By the way, I'm never going to be part
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> NFB,
>>>>>> ACB, AFB or any of them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> sincerely,
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Kelby,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive answer.  I
>>>>>>> can only tell you that I received training before there were NFB
>>>>>>> centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler and have
>>>>>>> generally managed my life successfully.  However, in the work I have
>>>>>>> done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there are things I missed
>>>>>>> when I was trained.  I think I have picked up much of what I missed
>>>>>>> primarily because of my association with others in the Federation.
>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>> has more to do with being confident enough to try new situations and
>>>>>>> knowing that I'll figure them out even if I don't know exactly how
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> the start, and less to do with how many inches I swing my cane left
>>>>>>> and right.  In my opinion, and you may see this as a cop-out, it has
>>>>>>> less to do with comparing the quality of one's travel skills and
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> to do with whether one actually gets out and travels.  These are not
>>>>>>> easy things to measure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the past,
>>>>>>> but I don't know how well you travel, for example.  What I do know
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> that most of us are affected by the general attitudes that surround
>>>>>>> us
>>>>>>> in a way that is hard to measure.  Even though we have some idea of
>>>>>>> what our capabilities are, unless we are exceptionally confident, we
>>>>>>> are going to tend to believe it if we are uncertain how we would
>>>>>>> accomplish a given thing and someone tells us we can't do it.  I
>>>>>>> believe there was a time when there was a clear dividing line
>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>> NFB training centers and many other centers.  We believed that we
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> to affect one's attitude toward blindness and oneself while most
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> centers believed that they need to concentrate on teaching
>>>>>>> techniques.
>>>>>>> The common belief among some other centers was that changing
>>>>>>> attitudes
>>>>>>> toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was outside of their
>>>>>>> mandate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that there
>>>>>>> is a more general acceptance of the notion that one's belief in
>>>>>>> oneself is probably as important as the techniques used so some of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> lines are not as clear as they once were.  Still, I am skeptical of
>>>>>>> how well attitudes can be changed in a couple of months, but of
>>>>>>> course, it depends some upon the starting point of the individual.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not all
>>>>>>> good travelers.  The person making the observation, who shall remain
>>>>>>> nameless, said that they felt a need to jump in and help but there
>>>>>>> were too many people to try to help all at once.
>>>>>>> However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people were
>>>>>>> getting where they needed to go without assistance, and that what
>>>>>>> appeared to be potentially frustrating to an observer was not the
>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>> for the traveler.  This isn't meant to diminish the role of good
>>>>>>> travel techniques, only to make the point that there is more to
>>>>>>> travel
>>>>>>> than techniques.  Having said all this, though, I also believe that
>>>>>>> what we have come to call structured discovery is a valid difference
>>>>>>> in how one learns to travel.  In some ways, it takes longer to learn
>>>>>>> but provides a better base from which to work.  Some of us who did
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> attend NFB training centers have adopted this approach on our own to
>>>>>>> some degree, but we would probably have adopted it more easily
>>>>>>> having
>>>>>>> had training in an NFB center.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
>>>>>>> Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have taken.
>>>>>>> Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem to be
>>>>>>> more open to the possibility that there are sometimes reasons for
>>>>>>> positions we might have taken.  I won't bore you with the details of
>>>>>>> the time I almost missed a flight because I allowed myself to be
>>>>>>> talked into waiting for a cart, only to have one not be available
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> close to an hour, and how the airline employee refused to tell me
>>>>>>> which gate I needed to get to.  Anyway, some of what you are hearing
>>>>>>> here would have been a part of your training at an NFB Center.  You
>>>>>>> would likely have been given the chance to interact personally with
>>>>>>> people who had similar experiences so that you could ask them
>>>>>>> questions.  You can get some of this information here, of course,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> what about the many experiences that are not discussed?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one
>>>>>>> another.
>>>>>>> My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was, because it
>>>>>>> might be all right.  I feel pretty certain that there are things you
>>>>>>> didn't get that you would have gotten had you spent time in one of
>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>> centers as indicated above, but I don't really think that is the
>>>>>>> point.  The point is how can we help you now and how can you help us
>>>>>>> and other blind people?  Are there things you are not comfortable
>>>>>>> doing that perhaps someone else here is comfortable doing?  We could
>>>>>>> even explore here some of the things that many of us have overcome
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> a result of the encouragement from others.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly as I
>>>>>>> see them, isn't that always true?  In the end, though, I don't care
>>>>>>> that much whether you believe there is a difference in training
>>>>>>> centers or not.  I care more that you have what you need to get a
>>>>>>> job
>>>>>>> when you get out of college and that you are able to live as full a
>>>>>>> life as you can live, and I believe there are ways we can help you
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from federationists-that
>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>local training simply must have been far, far inferior to anything
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>NFB has.  I have as of yet seen no actual compelling evidence for
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>claim, and no one I know well in the NFB has offered me convincing
>>>>>>>>reasons as to why the training I have is bad.  (Those who don't know
>>>>>>>>me can't offer any reasons, as they don't know my context.) If NFB
>>>>>>>>mobility is so wonderful, I wish they would allow people interested
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>pay for a little instruction to get a sense of their methodology in
>>>>>>>>real space time rather than forcing people to commit to six to nine
>>>>>>>>months.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Kelby
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 21
>>>>>>>>Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Well we all need good mobility skills.  A dog is not a replacement
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>mobility skills.  Whether you use a cane, sighted guide, or a guide
>>>>>>>>dog.
>>>>>>>>If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get
>>>>>>>> locally
>>>>>>>>then you don't know what you are missing.
>>>>>>>>Never going to them myself.  I have seen what someone with no
>>>>>>>>knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own areas,
>>>>>>>>and come back from our schools with the confidence and the mobility
>>>>>>>>and the other services that are given there.
>>>>>>>>If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
>>>>>>>>philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and then a
>>>>>>>>dog.  I have not been blind all my life.  I lost my vision as an
>>>>>>>>adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills, my dog doesn't
>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>when to cross the street, I have to give him the direction to do so.
>>>>>>>>Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to
>>>>>>>> mention
>>>>>>>>when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will either not
>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or in between a dog, or
>>>>>>>>whatever the issues are.  That I know the skills to get me where I
>>>>>>>>want to go whether it is with my Maxx or not.
>>>>>>>>Have a great night all.
>>>>>>>>Take care and god bless.
>>>>>>>>Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with kindness to
>>>>>>>>one another; and with the philosophy of the great organization.
>>>>>>>>Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the Way
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel Advocate!Cheryl
>>>>>>>>Echevarria,
>>>>>>>>Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
>>>>>>>>varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
>>>>>>>>Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
>>>>>>>>Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST -
>>>>>>>>#1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
>>>>>>>>Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser for
>>>>>>>>the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other resources.
>>>>>>>>Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6, 2013
>>>>>>>>and vacation must be traveled no later than
>>>>>>>>12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
>>>>>>>>Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families and
>>>>>>>>friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the
>>>>>>>> affiliate
>>>>>>>>as well.  You do not need to be a member of the NFB.org, just book
>>>>>>>>through us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
>>>>>>>> From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'll echo what Cindysaid.  There isno way I would give up that
>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>time for mobility training I already had purely for the  purpose of
>>>>>>>>getting a dog.  ZPeter said, I would go somewhere else
>>>>>>>> straightaway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kelby
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org  Date sent: Thu,
>>>>>>>>21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a real
>>>>>>>> lack of quality training for blind people.  I don't really think
>>>>>>>> that's the case with guide schools.  There are some schools which
>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> things differently from others.  But, there are people who prefer
>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>> approach over another.  I don't really think that NFB needs to get
>>>>>>>> involved with guide dog training.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the nine
>>>>>>>>month NFB  center training, first, this will severely limit the
>>>>>>>> number
>>>>>>>>of  people  choosing to have training from an NFB guide dog school,
>>>>>>>>should  one be  started.  I don't know to many people who can give
>>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>>>a year of  their life  to get a guide dog.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
>>>>>>>>     Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the
>>>>>>>>past so she  knows where I'm coming from.  In line with her comments
>>>>>>>>below I'd  like to  suggest a possible scenario for an NFB-run guide
>>>>>>>>dog program:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>         Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment
>>>>>>>>centers for  blind adults and youth there would be no need for a
>>>>>>>>facility for  housing  students in training to be constructed.  Hold
>>>>>>>>on folks.
>>>>>>>>Students
>>>>>>>> wishing to
>>>>>>>> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
>>>>>>>>complete the
>>>>>>>> 6-9 month program at one of the centers.  During the student's
>>>>>>>>"Bootcamp  training" the center has an opportunity to come to know
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>student  inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of background
>>>>>>>>information on the  applicant to the guide dog unit.  Unlike current
>>>>>>>>guide dog  programs that must  rely on references and other
>>>>>>>>information that may be true or  false the NFB  guide dog program
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>have all ready had accurate information  gathered for  them by the
>>>>>>>>training center and can be assured that the applicant  is a
>>>>>>>> suitable
>>>>>>>>candidate for a dog.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     This approach will also assure the guide dog program that the
>>>>>>>>student is  up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable of
>>>>>>>>transferring  them to the  use of a dog.  Students that successfully
>>>>>>>>complete the cane  travel component  of their immersion training
>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>be eligible to receive a dog.
>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
>>>>>>>>other  aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted
>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>students  often experience when at guide dog training facilities.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required to
>>>>>>>> wear sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes and
>>>>>>>> participating in designated center activities.  Like students who
>>>>>>>> undergo cane travel instruction at our centers those training with
>>>>>>>> dogs would be encouraged to travel on their own prior to completion
>>>>>>>> of the training.  In the beginning they could be accompanied by an
>>>>>>>> experienced guide dog user/trainer but would be expected to travel
>>>>>>>> and complete "Monster Routes" entirely on their own using their
>>>>>>>> dogs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would
>>>>>>>> operate similar to those of current guide dog programs.  The
>>>>>>>> program
>>>>>>>> would operate its own breeding component or obtain suitable dogs
>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>> donations.  The usual period of socialization and puppy raising
>>>>>>>> wouldn't be that much different than is done by current guide dog
>>>>>>>> programs.  The dogs would return for a period of training when
>>>>>>>> they're taught how to guide a blind person.  Once the dogs are
>>>>>>>> ready
>>>>>>>> to be pared with their future blind owner they along with an
>>>>>>>> instructor would be sent to the center where the student receiving
>>>>>>>> the dog will be trained.  Alternatively the NFB guide dog program
>>>>>>>> could operate from one of our centers.  Those wishing to obtain
>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>> once their "Bootcamp"
>>>>>>>> training is complete would transfer to that center for training
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> the dog.  Using all ready existing facilities to house students in
>>>>>>>> training is one way to reduce the cost of training guide dogs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>     The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run guide
>>>>>>>> dog program could work but I'm sure others would have additional
>>>>>>>> ideas.  If it's to happen at all the discussion must continue at a
>>>>>>>> cost of 0 to participants.  All the best.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold.  First I
>>>>>>>>would  like to see a more in depth background investigation of the
>>>>>>>>blind  applicant.  Do a criminal background check, require more
>>>>>>>>references, ask  the neighbors...whatever it takes.  Adoption
>>>>>>>> agencies
>>>>>>>>place  children  into homes surely we can figure out a way to more
>>>>>>>>accurately know  what  sort of situation the dog will be placed
>>>>>>>> into.
>>>>>>>>Secondly, I think  there  are already agencies in place for dealing
>>>>>>>>with animal abuse, the  police  and animal control.  I don't see any
>>>>>>>>reason why these agencies  can't be  used in cases of neglect or
>>>>>>>>abuse.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>dog  in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid point.
>>>>>>>>We
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> to stop expecting everything for nothing.  I like the Seeing  Eye's
>>>>>>>>concept of charging the student.  I do wish that the cost had
>>>>>>>>increased  over the years with the cost of living.  It has been $150
>>>>>>>>since  the  beginning of the school in 1928.  I think that's the
>>>>>>>> right
>>>>>>>>year.
>>>>>>>> $150
>>>>>>>> was a very different sum of money then and now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
>>>>>>>> substantially lower sums of money than $60,000.  If you look at the
>>>>>>>> various guide dog programs and how much each claims it costs to
>>>>>>>> train
>>>>>>>> a dog, the numbers vary widely.  All those buildings, fancy food,
>>>>>>>> excessive equipment and other niceties cost money.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%4
>>>>>>>> 0satx.rr.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>> n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>xx%40hotmail.com
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
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%
> 4
>>>>>>>>0visi.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/yogabare13%40gma
>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe, BA
>>>>>> cum laude Auburn University
>>>>>> e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
>>>>>> "If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for
>>>>>> anything"
>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe
>>>>>> "Stand up for your rights"
>>>>>> Bob Marley
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>
>>>>
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthlink.ne
>>>>>> t
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.
>>>> com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>
>>>>
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.c
>>>> om
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gma
>>>> il.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.
> com
>>>>
>>>
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>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>>> blindtlk:
>>>
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.c
> om
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindtlk mailing list
>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindtlk:
>>
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.
> com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindtlk mailing list
> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
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>
>
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> blindtlk:
>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.
com
>

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