[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?
Desiree Oudinot
turtlepower17 at gmail.com
Sat Mar 23 04:20:03 UTC 2013
Another good point, Mike. I guess I hadn't thought of it that way. I
guess it often seems like blind people define their worth by what
they're involved in because the blind are a smaller community, so that
sort of discussion crops up more often.
On 3/22/13, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
> But Desiree ...
>
> Sighted people *are* defined by the organizations they belong to. I dare
> say
> there are few Roman Catholics who proudly trumpet their faith while at the
> same time proudly exhibiting their membership cards to NARAL. (huge grin)
>
> Mike
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Desiree
> Oudinot
> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 4:42 PM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
> Not?
>
> That's sound advice. If sighted people aren't defined by the
> organizations or groups they belong to, why should we be? i'm not
> saying that anyone said or even implied that in this discussion, but I
> always get a distinct feeling from those who are deeply involved in
> either the NFB or ACB that they feel your thoughts and opinions don't
> matter if you're not also involved.
>
> On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have definitely met other blind people who were not in the NFB who I
> have
>> learned a lot from. You just have to take everyone's philosophy use
>> the
>> parts that work foryou.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Desiree
>> Oudinot
>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 7:27 PM
>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or
>> Not?
>>
>> I concur with your assessment, but don't expect to get any support
>> from NFB members. I give you props for willingly entering the lion's
>> den, though.
>>
>> On 3/22/13, kelby carlson <kelbycarlson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> My reservations are primarily attached to what I see as a "my way or
>>> the highway" mentality. Despite protestations to the contrary, I get
>>> the distinct feeling the NFB really believes it has found *the way* of
>>> understanding and living with blindness. While the NFB's particular
>>> methodology may work for some people--and has a good deal to commend
>>> it--it's just not something I'm comfortable embracing. I also detect a
>>> kind of insularity--a constant "looking in" if you will--that is
>>> unhelpful. It's one thing to have a like-minded community, but I
>>> sometimes feel as if there is a kind of feeling of superiority over
>>> sighted people--or even non-Federationists! I have felt distinctly out
>>> of the loop and out of place at some NFB events because I wasn't
>>> "plugged in", didn't know the lingo, and didn't have the kind of
>>> personal history that most other federationists seem to have. I cannot
>>> use these experiences to discourage anyone from joining the NFB, nor
>>> do I wish to. As I said previously in this discussion, I am
>>> uncomfortable with arguments based on anecdotal experience. This,
>>> then, is not an argument for or against the NFB--it probably explains
>>> more about me than the Federation. I hope that helps clarify a little.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> A good soldier is not measured by how many bullets they fire, but by
>>>> their dedication to the cause. And a warrior doesn't need to be on the
>>>> battlefield to prove his worth to society.
>>>>
>>>> On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Be a warrior. Be on the frong lines.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of kelby
>>>>> carlson
>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:52 PM
>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers
>>>>> or
>>>>> Not?
>>>>>
>>>>> My perspective is similar to Desiree's. I have every intention of
>>>>> getting more involved in blindness advocacy in some way. However, I
>>>>> have reservations about all of the organizations there are. (It's
>>>>> totally possible those reservations will go away some day.) For now, I
>>>>> want to figure out what's going to work best for me as a blind person
>>>>> and do what I can individually to help others as well. There is great
>>>>> value in collectivity--no mistake--I'm just at a place where that
>>>>> isn't how I believe i can best function. I do hope to attend the
>>>>> convention one of these years, though, and my mind could definitely
>>>>> change!
>>>>>
>>>>> I know I may come across sounding antagonistic toward the Federation
>>>>> at times. I need to work harder on moderating what I say and how I say
>>>>> it. But believe me when I say I see a ton of value in the Federation
>>>>> and a great deal that I like and agree with. Fundamentally, my
>>>>> philosophy is very similar (I think) to the NFB philosophy. How it is
>>>>> worked out practically is sometimes where the rubber meets the road.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>> While I won't speak for Peter, I'll give my own perspective on why I
>>>>>> choose not to join the NFB or ACB.
>>>>>> It's not about having a superiority complex. I don't consider myself
>>>>>> to be better than anyone who is part of an organization. however, I
>>>>>> like to draw my own conclusions, keeping politics and hidden agendas
>>>>>> at arm's length. That's why my involvement only extends as far as
>>>>>> listservs will take it. I feel that reading messages written by
>>>>>> individual members is a much more unbiased, not to mention realistic
>>>>>> view, of how the members of each organization live, work and interact
>>>>>> in day-to-day life. At a meeting or convention, there's the
>>>>>> expectation that one must carry themselves a certain way, say the
>>>>>> right things, be inspired by all the right catch phrases. That's not
>>>>>> limited to organizations for or of the blind, either, that's a fact
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> human nature. When you draw a large number of like-minded individuals
>>>>>> together, and get them all to focus on one specific problem,
>>>>>> proposition, or what have you, the people will either put their best
>>>>>> or worst foot forward collectively. There is little time for
>>>>>> individual thought processes, emotions, or personalities to take root
>>>>>> and stand above the rest.
>>>>>> I am, by nature, very reserved, maybe I could even be classified as a
>>>>>> loner in a lot of ways. As I said, I think and draw conclusions best
>>>>>> when there are no distractions, no bells and whistles so to speak. I
>>>>>> take what is important to me, what fits in with my values and
>>>>>> beliefs,
>>>>>> and apply it to how I live my life. I don't honestly feel that I need
>>>>>> to belong to anything to find my purpose, nor should I be told that I
>>>>>> have no purpose unless I'm at the forefront of every high and low
>>>>>> point in the organization's history. I am content with this, and I
>>>>>> feel that I have a right to speak out about it, since it's a
>>>>>> viewpoint
>>>>>> which most who hold it would probably not be comfortable expressing
>>>>>> for fear of being blamed and shamed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/22/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hello, Peter. I have not followed this thread, but I have looked at
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> two of your posts. I think it is a shame that you will not join the
>>>>>>> American Council of the Blind or the National Federation of the
>>>>>>> Blind.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> suppose you believe there is some kind of superiority in being what
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> might call an independent. Perhaps you are right, but my own life
>>>>>>> experience indicates that having influence means joining with others
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>> mind, exploring how you can understand them and get them to
>>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>> you,
>>>>>>> and then acting together in a concerted way to bring about the
>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>> world
>>>>>>> we all say we want. One popular buzzword you can't help but hear if
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> listen to five minutes of the news is the word infrastructure, but
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> a lot to be said for having a way to effect the change we want. For
>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> is the National Federation of the Blind. For others it is the
>>>>>>> American
>>>>>>> Council of the Blind. Though the organizations may disagree from
>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> time, one thing most all of us share is that we have made a
>>>>>>> commitment
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> blind people that extends beyond words. We are willing to put our
>>>>>>> time,
>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>> energy, and our money into helping you, whether or not you
>>>>>>> appreciate
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> we do so or ever raise a finger to help us. Much distance remains
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> us
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> travel, and we certainly can use a willing hand at the oars. Thanks
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> reading.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>> Wolfe
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:52 PM
>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
>>>>>>> Centers
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> Not?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In fact, the best method that anybody can teach you is
>>>>>>> improvization
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> technique persay. It doesn't matter where you get any information
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> these things whether NFB, ACB, AFB, Lion's Club's or wherever as
>>>>>>> long
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> get whatever information. Make-up yoru own techniques and sell a
>>>>>>> book
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> all I care as long as it works for you that is all that counts. I
>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>> careless as logn as you share the information with fellow blind
>>>>>>> individuals
>>>>>>> that is my thhing that it shouldn't matter what special interest
>>>>>>> group
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> your apart of cause we should all work together in dealing with a
>>>>>>> rotten
>>>>>>> situation to make it better. By the way, I'm never going to be part
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> NFB,
>>>>>>> ACB, AFB or any of them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> sincerely,
>>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Kelby,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive answer.
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> can only tell you that I received training before there were NFB
>>>>>>>> centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler and have
>>>>>>>> generally managed my life successfully. However, in the work I
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there are things I missed
>>>>>>>> when I was trained. I think I have picked up much of what I missed
>>>>>>>> primarily because of my association with others in the Federation.
>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>> has more to do with being confident enough to try new situations
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> knowing that I'll figure them out even if I don't know exactly how
>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>> the start, and less to do with how many inches I swing my cane left
>>>>>>>> and right. In my opinion, and you may see this as a cop-out, it
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> less to do with comparing the quality of one's travel skills and
>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>> to do with whether one actually gets out and travels. These are
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> easy things to measure.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the past,
>>>>>>>> but I don't know how well you travel, for example. What I do know
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> that most of us are affected by the general attitudes that surround
>>>>>>>> us
>>>>>>>> in a way that is hard to measure. Even though we have some idea of
>>>>>>>> what our capabilities are, unless we are exceptionally confident,
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> are going to tend to believe it if we are uncertain how we would
>>>>>>>> accomplish a given thing and someone tells us we can't do it. I
>>>>>>>> believe there was a time when there was a clear dividing line
>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>> NFB training centers and many other centers. We believed that we
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> to affect one's attitude toward blindness and oneself while most
>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>> centers believed that they need to concentrate on teaching
>>>>>>>> techniques.
>>>>>>>> The common belief among some other centers was that changing
>>>>>>>> attitudes
>>>>>>>> toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was outside of
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> mandate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that
>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>> is a more general acceptance of the notion that one's belief in
>>>>>>>> oneself is probably as important as the techniques used so some of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> lines are not as clear as they once were. Still, I am skeptical of
>>>>>>>> how well attitudes can be changed in a couple of months, but of
>>>>>>>> course, it depends some upon the starting point of the individual.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not all
>>>>>>>> good travelers. The person making the observation, who shall
>>>>>>>> remain
>>>>>>>> nameless, said that they felt a need to jump in and help but there
>>>>>>>> were too many people to try to help all at once.
>>>>>>>> However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people
>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>> getting where they needed to go without assistance, and that what
>>>>>>>> appeared to be potentially frustrating to an observer was not the
>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>> for the traveler. This isn't meant to diminish the role of good
>>>>>>>> travel techniques, only to make the point that there is more to
>>>>>>>> travel
>>>>>>>> than techniques. Having said all this, though, I also believe that
>>>>>>>> what we have come to call structured discovery is a valid
>>>>>>>> difference
>>>>>>>> in how one learns to travel. In some ways, it takes longer to
>>>>>>>> learn
>>>>>>>> but provides a better base from which to work. Some of us who did
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> attend NFB training centers have adopted this approach on our own
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> some degree, but we would probably have adopted it more easily
>>>>>>>> having
>>>>>>>> had training in an NFB center.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
>>>>>>>> Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have taken.
>>>>>>>> Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem to be
>>>>>>>> more open to the possibility that there are sometimes reasons for
>>>>>>>> positions we might have taken. I won't bore you with the details
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the time I almost missed a flight because I allowed myself to be
>>>>>>>> talked into waiting for a cart, only to have one not be available
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> close to an hour, and how the airline employee refused to tell me
>>>>>>>> which gate I needed to get to. Anyway, some of what you are
>>>>>>>> hearing
>>>>>>>> here would have been a part of your training at an NFB Center. You
>>>>>>>> would likely have been given the chance to interact personally with
>>>>>>>> people who had similar experiences so that you could ask them
>>>>>>>> questions. You can get some of this information here, of course,
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> what about the many experiences that are not discussed?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one
>>>>>>>> another.
>>>>>>>> My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was, because
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> might be all right. I feel pretty certain that there are things
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> didn't get that you would have gotten had you spent time in one of
>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>> centers as indicated above, but I don't really think that is the
>>>>>>>> point. The point is how can we help you now and how can you help
>>>>>>>> us
>>>>>>>> and other blind people? Are there things you are not comfortable
>>>>>>>> doing that perhaps someone else here is comfortable doing? We
>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>> even explore here some of the things that many of us have overcome
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> a result of the encouragement from others.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly as
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> see them, isn't that always true? In the end, though, I don't care
>>>>>>>> that much whether you believe there is a difference in training
>>>>>>>> centers or not. I care more that you have what you need to get a
>>>>>>>> job
>>>>>>>> when you get out of college and that you are able to live as full a
>>>>>>>> life as you can live, and I believe there are ways we can help you
>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from federationists-that
>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>local training simply must have been far, far inferior to anything
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>NFB has. I have as of yet seen no actual compelling evidence for
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>claim, and no one I know well in the NFB has offered me convincing
>>>>>>>>>reasons as to why the training I have is bad. (Those who don't
>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>>me can't offer any reasons, as they don't know my context.) If NFB
>>>>>>>>>mobility is so wonderful, I wish they would allow people interested
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>pay for a little instruction to get a sense of their methodology in
>>>>>>>>>real space time rather than forcing people to commit to six to nine
>>>>>>>>>months.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Kelby
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>>To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu, 21
>>>>>>>>>Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Well we all need good mobility skills. A dog is not a replacement
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>mobility skills. Whether you use a cane, sighted guide, or a guide
>>>>>>>>>dog.
>>>>>>>>>If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get
>>>>>>>>> locally
>>>>>>>>>then you don't know what you are missing.
>>>>>>>>>Never going to them myself. I have seen what someone with no
>>>>>>>>>knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own areas,
>>>>>>>>>and come back from our schools with the confidence and the mobility
>>>>>>>>>and the other services that are given there.
>>>>>>>>>If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
>>>>>>>>>philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and then
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>dog. I have not been blind all my life. I lost my vision as an
>>>>>>>>>adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills, my dog doesn't
>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>>when to cross the street, I have to give him the direction to do
>>>>>>>>> so.
>>>>>>>>>Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to
>>>>>>>>> mention
>>>>>>>>>when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will either not
>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or in between a dog, or
>>>>>>>>>whatever the issues are. That I know the skills to get me where I
>>>>>>>>>want to go whether it is with my Maxx or not.
>>>>>>>>>Have a great night all.
>>>>>>>>>Take care and god bless.
>>>>>>>>>Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with kindness
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>one another; and with the philosophy of the great organization.
>>>>>>>>>Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the Way
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel
>>>>>>>>> Advocate!Cheryl
>>>>>>>>>Echevarria,
>>>>>>>>>Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
>>>>>>>>>varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
>>>>>>>>>Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
>>>>>>>>>Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST -
>>>>>>>>>#1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
>>>>>>>>>Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser for
>>>>>>>>>the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other resources.
>>>>>>>>>Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6,
>>>>>>>>> 2013
>>>>>>>>>and vacation must be traveled no later than
>>>>>>>>>12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
>>>>>>>>>Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families and
>>>>>>>>>friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the
>>>>>>>>> affiliate
>>>>>>>>>as well. You do not need to be a member of the NFB.org, just book
>>>>>>>>>through us.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
>>>>>>>>> From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'll echo what Cindysaid. There isno way I would give up that
>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>time for mobility training I already had purely for the purpose of
>>>>>>>>>getting a dog. ZPeter said, I would go somewhere else
>>>>>>>>> straightaway.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Kelby
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
>>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent:
>>>>>>>>> Thu,
>>>>>>>>>21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a
>>>>>>>>> real
>>>>>>>>> lack of quality training for blind people. I don't really think
>>>>>>>>> that's the case with guide schools. There are some schools which
>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>> things differently from others. But, there are people who prefer
>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>> approach over another. I don't really think that NFB needs to get
>>>>>>>>> involved with guide dog training.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the nine
>>>>>>>>>month NFB center training, first, this will severely limit the
>>>>>>>>> number
>>>>>>>>>of people choosing to have training from an NFB guide dog school,
>>>>>>>>>should one be started. I don't know to many people who can give
>>>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>>>>a year of their life to get a guide dog.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
>>>>>>>>> Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the
>>>>>>>>>past so she knows where I'm coming from. In line with her
>>>>>>>>> comments
>>>>>>>>>below I'd like to suggest a possible scenario for an NFB-run
>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>dog program:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment
>>>>>>>>>centers for blind adults and youth there would be no need for a
>>>>>>>>>facility for housing students in training to be constructed.
>>>>>>>>> Hold
>>>>>>>>>on folks.
>>>>>>>>>Students
>>>>>>>>> wishing to
>>>>>>>>> obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
>>>>>>>>>complete the
>>>>>>>>> 6-9 month program at one of the centers. During the student's
>>>>>>>>>"Bootcamp training" the center has an opportunity to come to know
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>student inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of background
>>>>>>>>>information on the applicant to the guide dog unit. Unlike
>>>>>>>>> current
>>>>>>>>>guide dog programs that must rely on references and other
>>>>>>>>>information that may be true or false the NFB guide dog program
>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>have all ready had accurate information gathered for them by the
>>>>>>>>>training center and can be assured that the applicant is a
>>>>>>>>> suitable
>>>>>>>>>candidate for a dog.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This approach will also assure the guide dog program that the
>>>>>>>>>student is up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable of
>>>>>>>>>transferring them to the use of a dog. Students that
>>>>>>>>> successfully
>>>>>>>>>complete the cane travel component of their immersion training
>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>be eligible to receive a dog.
>>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>>> approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
>>>>>>>>>other aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted
>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>students often experience when at guide dog training facilities.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required to
>>>>>>>>> wear sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes and
>>>>>>>>> participating in designated center activities. Like students who
>>>>>>>>> undergo cane travel instruction at our centers those training with
>>>>>>>>> dogs would be encouraged to travel on their own prior to
>>>>>>>>> completion
>>>>>>>>> of the training. In the beginning they could be accompanied by an
>>>>>>>>> experienced guide dog user/trainer but would be expected to travel
>>>>>>>>> and complete "Monster Routes" entirely on their own using their
>>>>>>>>> dogs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would
>>>>>>>>> operate similar to those of current guide dog programs. The
>>>>>>>>> program
>>>>>>>>> would operate its own breeding component or obtain suitable dogs
>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>> donations. The usual period of socialization and puppy raising
>>>>>>>>> wouldn't be that much different than is done by current guide dog
>>>>>>>>> programs. The dogs would return for a period of training when
>>>>>>>>> they're taught how to guide a blind person. Once the dogs are
>>>>>>>>> ready
>>>>>>>>> to be pared with their future blind owner they along with an
>>>>>>>>> instructor would be sent to the center where the student receiving
>>>>>>>>> the dog will be trained. Alternatively the NFB guide dog program
>>>>>>>>> could operate from one of our centers. Those wishing to obtain
>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>> once their "Bootcamp"
>>>>>>>>> training is complete would transfer to that center for training
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> the dog. Using all ready existing facilities to house students in
>>>>>>>>> training is one way to reduce the cost of training guide dogs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run
>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>> dog program could work but I'm sure others would have additional
>>>>>>>>> ideas. If it's to happen at all the discussion must continue at a
>>>>>>>>> cost of 0 to participants. All the best.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
>>>>>>>>> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold. First I
>>>>>>>>>would like to see a more in depth background investigation of the
>>>>>>>>>blind applicant. Do a criminal background check, require more
>>>>>>>>>references, ask the neighbors...whatever it takes. Adoption
>>>>>>>>> agencies
>>>>>>>>>place children into homes surely we can figure out a way to more
>>>>>>>>>accurately know what sort of situation the dog will be placed
>>>>>>>>> into.
>>>>>>>>>Secondly, I think there are already agencies in place for dealing
>>>>>>>>>with animal abuse, the police and animal control. I don't see
>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>reason why these agencies can't be used in cases of neglect or
>>>>>>>>>abuse.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>dog in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid point.
>>>>>>>>>We
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> to stop expecting everything for nothing. I like the Seeing
>>>>>>>>> Eye's
>>>>>>>>>concept of charging the student. I do wish that the cost had
>>>>>>>>>increased over the years with the cost of living. It has been
>>>>>>>>> $150
>>>>>>>>>since the beginning of the school in 1928. I think that's the
>>>>>>>>> right
>>>>>>>>>year.
>>>>>>>>> $150
>>>>>>>>> was a very different sum of money then and now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
>>>>>>>>> substantially lower sums of money than $60,000. If you look at
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> various guide dog programs and how much each claims it costs to
>>>>>>>>> train
>>>>>>>>> a dog, the numbers vary widely. All those buildings, fancy food,
>>>>>>>>> excessive equipment and other niceties cost money.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%4
>>>>>>>>> 0satx.rr.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/cindy425%40
>>>>>>>>> verizon.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>for blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlso
>>>>>>>>> n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/cherylandma
>>>>>>>>>xx%40hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlso
>>>>>>>>>n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson
> %
>> 4
>>>>>>>>>0visi.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/yogabare13%40gma
>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe, BA
>>>>>>> cum laude Auburn University
>>>>>>> e-mail: yogabare13 at gmail.com
>>>>>>> "If you don't stand up for something your willing to fall for
>>>>>>> anything"
>>>>>>> Peter Q Wolfe
>>>>>>> "Stand up for your rights"
>>>>>>> Bob Marley
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthlink.ne
>>>>>>> t
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.
>>>>> com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.c
>>>>> om
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>
>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gma
>>>>> il.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>>
>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.
>> com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> blindtlk:
>>>>
>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/kelbycarlson%40gmail.c
>> om
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> blindtlk mailing list
>>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> blindtlk:
>>>
>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.
>> com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindtlk mailing list
>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindtlk:
>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gma
>> il.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> blindtlk mailing list
>> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> blindtlk:
>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.
> com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindtlk mailing list
> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindtlk:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> blindtlk mailing list
> blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindtlk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> blindtlk:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindtlk_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com
>
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