[Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School

Sat Mar 23 22:05:16 UTC 2013

Kelby,
    I will admit that there are times when it may be better for a consumer 
to go home with a dog on a trial basis before transfering ownership. This, 
however, should be the exception, rather than the rule. When the "rule" is 
that ownership is not transferred to anyone until after a specific 
probationary period, I believe it is paternalistic. what justification is 
there for such a blanket policy other than "blind people need to prove they 
are capable of properly caring for their dog and we are going to monitor 
their ability for x months"? If a blind person has satisfactorily completed 
training, they should be given ownership of the dog upon such satisfactory 
completion.
    By the way, you asked the question of which programs are closest to the 
NFB's philosophical perspective. I think there are several that are close 
and many that are very far away. Though one way is to inspect their 
ownership policies, not all that transfer ownership upon completion of 
training do well in other consumer areas. Those who transfer ownership upon 
completion of training include Guide Dogs of America, Guide Dogs of the 
Desert, Guide dog Foundation, Southeastern Guide Dogs, and The Seeing Eye. 
Though Fidelco says they transfer ownership after six months, the truth is 
that they retain the right to remove a dog at any time and for any reason. 
They may call it ownership, but that doesn't sound like any type of 
ownership rights I have ever heard of!
    Nearly every program states that a guide dog gives a blind person 
dignity. Dignity is not something that is given to another; it is an innate 
quality. It is no less dignified to use a white cane than to use a guide 
dog. Though not perfect, The Seeing Eye and Guide Dog Foundation have the 
best policies for handling complaints against consumers by not accepting 
anonymous complaints and referring complaintants to the local animal 
services agency.
    So, there are many factors to consider and, I believe, one day a 
majority of the training programs will be congruent with our Bill of Rights. 
Until then, we will continue advocating for the rights of consumers and 
urging training programs to treat blind adults like, well, adults!

Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kelby Carlson" <kelbycarlson at gmail.com>
To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School


> Thanks, Marion! I think I understand where you're coming from.  What about 
> schools like GDB who retain ownership for a limited time in case of a bad 
> match or problems with the handler/dog, but cede ownership after a year? 
> Due to the large amount of time and money invested in the dogs by a lot of 
> people, this seems like a reasonable solution.  I totally understand your 
> concerns over inappropriate behavior from the schools and do not want to 
> condone such a thing.  But I'm also not sure we can reduce retension 
> policies to mere paternalism in all cases.
>
> Kelby
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Fri, 22 Mar 2013 08:09:52 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School
>
> Kelby,
>    I appreciate your input and asking the question.  The challenge is 
> that,
> without ownership, we have few rights to protect ourselves.  AS NAGDU
> president, I have witnessed some very despicable behavior from training
> programs that do not transfer ownership upon completion of training.
> Furthermore, failure to transfer ownership sends a message that blind 
> people
> are not capable of caring for and making decisions about their dogs. 
> There
> are community provisions already in place that protect the interests of 
> the
> training programs and the dogs, so retention of ownership is nothing more
> than paternalism at its worst.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kelby Carlson" <kelbycarlson at gmail.com
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 1:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School
>
>
> Seriously, what is the big deal? Perhaps I haven't been a guide dog user
> long enough, but I see no problem (and actually some advantage) in at
> least a period of ownership retension.  This is as much practical as it is
> "paternalistic".  And do you seriously want blind people to picket guide
> dog schools over this? That will certainly help the NFB's image among the
> blind community.
>
> Kelby
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 12:29:09 -0500
> Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School
>
> Hello Cheryl and everyone,
>
>    I've discussed this with Marion privately and suggested that an item
> concerning the creation of an NFB-run guide dog program be put on the
> NAGDU
> agenda to no avail.  I was at last year's NAGDU Meeting and was very
> disgusted with the reaction of the audience when Marion addressed the
> group
> concerning the continued practice of ownership retention by guide dog
> programs.  Few if anyone applauded his remarks and there was hardly any
> call
> for a more aggressive response to ending this practice.  If things have
> changed when I see picket lines go up in front of the grounds of guide dog
> schools that still retain ownership of the dogs it places with its blind
> students than I'll know there is a new spirit of concerted action within
> NAGDU.  I'll be watching the Braille Monitor for this year's NAGDU Agenda
> to
> see what new item will be included or if it's going to be the
> same-old-same-old!
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "cheryl echevarria" <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
> To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 11:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>
>
> The only way any of this is going to happen is to come to national
> convention and come to the NAGDU meeting and work on it together.  We are
> an
> organization, and we should all work together, and if that doesn't work
> then
> you get the people in that division that will do it.
>
> Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State
> Leading the Way in Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel
> Advocate!Cheryl Echevarria,
>
> Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
> varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
> Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
> Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST -
> #1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National Federation
> of
> the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser for the
> http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other resources.  Any
> vacation
> package booked between November 6 2012-November 6, 2013 and vacation must
> be
> traveled no later than 12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to
> the
> affiliate.  Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families
> and friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the affiliate
> as well.  You do not need to be a member of the NFB.org, just book through
> us.
>
>
> From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com
> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 12:04:07 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>
> No, pamper the dogs.  They work hard and they deserve it.  I like the
> other
> stuff you said though.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 9:08 AM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
>
> I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold.  First I would
> like to see a more in depth background investigation of the blind
> applicant.  Do a criminal background check, require more references, ask
> the neighbors...whatever it takes.  Adoption agencies place children
> into homes surely we can figure out a way to more accurately know what
> sort of situation the dog will be placed into.  Secondly, I think there
> are already agencies in place for dealing with animal abuse, the police
> and animal control.  I don't see any reason why these agencies can't be
> used in cases of neglect or abuse.
>
> In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of the dog
> in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid point.  We have
> to stop expecting everything for nothing.  I like the Seeing Eye's
> concept of charging the student.  I do wish that the cost had increased
> over the years with the cost of living.  It has been $150 since the
> beginning of the school in 1928.  I think that's the right year.  $150
> was a very different sum of money then and now.
>
> I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for substantially
> lower sums of money than $60,000.  If you look at the various guide dog
> programs and how much each claims it costs to train a dog, the numbers
> vary widely.  All those buildings, fancy food, excessive equipment and
> other niceties cost money.
>
> Julie
>
>
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