[Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB Centers or Not?
Kelby Carlson
kelbycarlson at gmail.com
Sat Mar 23 22:08:33 UTC 2013
This is turning into an interesting discussion, but not one I'm
sure is ideal for this list. I think the reason we are differing
so much is because we have different ideas of what influence is,
how it works, what kinds of influences are important, and related
issues. My opinions on this subject are rooted in deeper
philosophical and political convictions that have little to do
with blindness.
Kelby
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com
To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 14:44:20 -0700
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
Centers or Not?
Kelby:
I'm not Gary but I did mention the obligation to participate in
order to
exert influence or remain silent. Please do not misconstrue what
I say. You
are, of course, free and welcome to state your position in any
forum you
like that will allow it. The question is how much influence you
will be able
to bring to bear to obtain the ends you seek. In the political
world, at
least, everything turns on votes or, if not votes, on the
negative
consequences you can cause to happen if you are not listened to.
In the case
of votes, numbers do count -- if not directly, then indirectly
through the
adverse or positive publicity groups such as the Federation can
cause to
happen that affect votes.
Your example of the Catholic church is instructive. If every
bishop in the
college of cardinals were to say that they will resign en masse
unless
abusers and those who tolerate them serve time in the Big House,
I dare say
RCC would change PDQ. But because they choose to not act
collectively, it's
anyone's guess how much will ultimately be fixed. I'll stop
there as I have
no desire (and it would be off-topic) to comment further on Roman
Catholicism.
The ultimate question, therefore, is whether you truly believe
you can have
much influence absent participation in a pressure group. If
you're Paul
Allen or Bill Gates, perhaps. But since you are not, I would
opine that it
would be worth your while to join either ACB or NFB insofar as
blindness-related matters are concerned.
Just my $0.02-worth.
Mike Freeman
-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
Kelby
Carlson
Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2013 2:30 PM
To: gwunder at earthlink.net; Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
Centers or
Not?
Gary,
I want to offer my mutual appreciation for this discussion. The
list of things the NFB knows are things I also know, and believe
in passionately. I am always encouraged by this, as I like
finding common ground from which to discuss things. There is
know thing that I think I would disagree with you on, but it
actually has a lot less to do with blindness at all. In a
previous message, you said that if someone is unwilling to join a
group toward a specific cause, than they are morally obligated
not to complain if said cause is not succeeding. I think I
understand your point here-let me know if I have stated it
inaccurately. However, let me offer you a counter-example. I
follow religious news closely, so I know a fair amount about the
abuse scandals in the Catholic church. I am not Catholic and
don't have any plans to be. Nor, in the specific position I am
in geographically, contextually and vocationally, am I likely to
have some or any influence. But I'm not sure your conclusion is
supported by your premise: that collective action is the best way
to influence events. It definitely can be effective, but does
that mean it is the only means of inflencing the world? Or even
the primary means? Can I not influence political, ethical or
religious attitudes locally, through discussion and example? Am I
forbidden from expressing moral convictions simply because I am
not actively working in a collective to support those
convictions? I would need a more substantial argument to be
convinced that's the case.
Kelby
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net
To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 15:46:33 -0500
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
Centers or Not?
Hello, Kelby. I appreciate your honesty and the fact that you
are talking
about feelings rather than making accusations.
There are comments which are sometimes made in the NFB that make
me
uncomfortable. I do not think we know the truth about blindness.
It is a
nice statement, but it is too overarching for me to embrace. I
think we
know some truths about blindness that make sense. I think we
know that good
training can make a tremendous difference in how people function
in the
world. I think we know that it makes sense for society to
support
rehabilitation programs that lead to our education and
employment. I think
we know that it makes sense to carry a cane that is long enough
to tell you
there is a poll or a sign in your path before you actually come
in contact
with it. I think we know that being literate is helpful in the
information
society and that this issue must be addressed so that many blind
people have
opportunity. I think we know that an important element of
changing attitudes
about blindness comes from interacting with and collectively
addressing the
misconceptions that cause a social worker to say there is no way
she can, in
good conscience, place a frail little infant in the care of two
blind people
unless they can guarantee her they will have 24x7 sighted
assistance.
I can't think of one person who believes that they are superior
by virtue of
the fact that they are blind. I can, however, think of a number
of people
who believe they are inferior because they once had sight and no
longer do.
I do believe that there are times when people react so strongly
to the
notion that we are broken human beings that they make it sound as
though we
are somehow special or superior, but I think this has more to do
with
changing the underlying assumptions of our discussions than it
does a true
sense of superiority.
I am glad you are part of this list, whether or not you decide to
join the
national Federation of the blind. I feel the same way about
Desiree. I
welcome the opportunity to exchange points of view, and I do not
consider it
a failure of communication if I failed to change your mind or you
failed to
change mine. As long as we can communicate civilly and actually
try to
understand what the other person is saying, I think this kind of
conversation is very worthwhile.
Warmly,
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
kelby
carlson
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:51 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
Centers or
Not?
My reservations are primarily attached to what I see as a "my way
or the
highway" mentality. Despite protestations to the contrary, I get
the
distinct feeling the NFB really believes it has found *the way*
of
understanding and living with blindness. While the NFB's
particular
methodology may work for some people--and has a good deal to
commend
it--it's just not something I'm comfortable embracing. I also
detect a kind
of insularity--a constant "looking in" if you will--that is
unhelpful. It's
one thing to have a like-minded community, but I sometimes feel
as if there
is a kind of feeling of superiority over sighted people--or even
non-Federationists! I have felt distinctly out of the loop and
out of place
at some NFB events because I wasn't "plugged in", didn't know the
lingo, and
didn't have the kind of personal history that most other
federationists seem
to have. I cannot use these experiences to discourage anyone
from joining
the NFB, nor do I wish to. As I said previously in this
discussion, I am
uncomfortable with arguments based on anecdotal experience.
This, then, is
not an argument for or against the NFB--it probably explains more
about me
than the Federation. I hope that helps clarify a little.
On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
A good soldier is not measured by how many bullets they fire,
but by
their dedication to the cause. And a warrior doesn't need to be
on the
battlefield to prove his worth to society.
On 3/21/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
Be a warrior. Be on the frong lines.
-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
kelby carlson
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 5:52 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
Centers
or Not?
My perspective is similar to Desiree's. I have every intention
of
getting more involved in blindness advocacy in some way.
However, I
have reservations about all of the organizations there are.
(It's
totally possible those reservations will go away some day.) For
now,
I want to figure out what's going to work best for me as a blind
person and do what I can individually to help others as well.
There
is great value in collectivity--no mistake--I'm just at a place
where
that isn't how I believe i can best function. I do hope to
attend the
convention one of these years, though, and my mind could
definitely
change!
I know I may come across sounding antagonistic toward the
Federation
at times. I need to work harder on moderating what I say and
how I
say it. But believe me when I say I see a ton of value in the
Federation and a great deal that I like and agree with.
Fundamentally, my philosophy is very similar (I think) to the
NFB
philosophy. How it is worked out practically is sometimes where
the
rubber meets the road.
On 3/22/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
While I won't speak for Peter, I'll give my own perspective on
why I
choose not to join the NFB or ACB.
It's not about having a superiority complex. I don't consider
myself
to be better than anyone who is part of an organization.
however, I
like to draw my own conclusions, keeping politics and hidden
agendas
at arm's length. That's why my involvement only extends as far
as
listservs will take it. I feel that reading messages written by
individual members is a much more unbiased, not to mention
realistic
view, of how the members of each organization live, work and
interact in day-to-day life. At a meeting or convention,
there's the
expectation that one must carry themselves a certain way, say
the
right things, be inspired by all the right catch phrases.
That's not
limited to organizations for or of the blind, either, that's a
fact
of human nature. When you draw a large number of like-minded
individuals together, and get them all to focus on one specific
problem, proposition, or what have you, the people will either
put
their best or worst foot forward collectively. There is little
time
for individual thought processes, emotions, or personalities to
take
root and stand above the rest.
I am, by nature, very reserved, maybe I could even be classified
as
a loner in a lot of ways. As I said, I think and draw
conclusions
best when there are no distractions, no bells and whistles so to
speak. I take what is important to me, what fits in with my
values
and beliefs, and apply it to how I live my life. I don't
honestly
feel that I need to belong to anything to find my purpose, nor
should I be told that I have no purpose unless I'm at the
forefront
of every high and low point in the organization's history. I am
content with this, and I feel that I have a right to speak out
about
it, since it's a viewpoint which most who hold it would probably
not
be comfortable expressing for fear of being blamed and shamed.
On 3/22/13, Gary Wunder <gwunder at earthlink.net> wrote:
Hello, Peter. I have not followed this thread, but I have
looked
at one or two of your posts. I think it is a shame that you
will
not join the American Council of the Blind or the National
Federation of the Blind.
I
suppose you believe there is some kind of superiority in being
what
you might call an independent. Perhaps you are right, but my
own
life experience indicates that having influence means joining
with
others of like mind, exploring how you can understand them and
get
them to understand you, and then acting together in a concerted
way
to bring about the better world we all say we want. One popular
buzzword you can't help but hear if you listen to five minutes
of
the news is the word infrastructure, but there is a lot to be
said
for having a way to effect the change we want. For me this is
the
National Federation of the Blind. For others it is the American
Council of the Blind. Though the organizations may disagree
from
time to time, one thing most all of us share is that we have
made a
commitment to blind people that extends beyond words. We are
willing to put our time, our energy, and our money into helping
you, whether or not you appreciate that we do so or ever raise a
finger to help us. Much distance remains for us to travel, and
we
certainly can use a willing hand at the oars. Thanks for
reading.
-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
Peter Wolfe
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 1:52 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Adjustment to Blindness Training, NFB
Centers or Not?
In fact, the best method that anybody can teach you is
improvization not technique persay. It doesn't matter where you
get
any information from on these things whether NFB, ACB, AFB,
Lion's
Club's or wherever as long as you get whatever information.
Make-up
yoru own techniques and sell a book for all I care as long as it
works for you that is all that counts. I could careless as logn
as
you share the information with fellow blind individuals that is
my
thhing that it shouldn't matter what special interest group that
your apart of cause we should all work together in dealing with
a
rotten situation to make it better. By the way, I'm never going
to
be part of NFB, ACB, AFB or any of them.
sincerely,
Peter
On 3/22/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
Kelby,
Your question is a fair one and I don't have a definitive
answer.
I can only tell you that I received training before there were
NFB
centers and I have been a reasonably successful traveler and
have
generally managed my life successfully. However, in the work I
have done with BLIND Incorporated, I see that there are things I
missed when I was trained. I think I have picked up much of
what
I missed primarily because of my association with others in the
Federation. It has more to do with being confident enough to
try
new situations and knowing that I'll figure them out even if I
don't know exactly how at the start, and less to do with how
many
inches I swing my cane left and right. In my opinion, and you
may
see this as a cop-out, it has less to do with comparing the
quality of one's travel skills and more to do with whether one
actually gets out and travels. These are not easy things to
measure.
I know you some via e-mail and I think we may have met in the
past, but I don't know how well you travel, for example. What I
do know is that most of us are affected by the general attitudes
that surround us in a way that is hard to measure. Even though
we
have some idea of what our capabilities are, unless we are
exceptionally confident, we are going to tend to believe it if
we
are uncertain how we would accomplish a given thing and someone
tells us we can't do it. I believe there was a time when there
was a clear dividing line between NFB training centers and many
other centers. We believed that we have to affect one's
attitude
toward blindness and oneself while most other centers believed
that
they need to concentrate on teaching techniques.
The common belief among some other centers was that changing
attitudes toward blindness was dictating a philosophy and was
outside of their mandate.
Frankly, I think this has changed some over the years and that
there is a more general acceptance of the notion that one's
belief
in oneself is probably as important as the techniques used so
some
of the lines are not as clear as they once were. Still, I am
skeptical of how well attitudes can be changed in a couple of
months, but of course, it depends some upon the starting point
of the
individual.
It was observed at one of our state conventions that we are not
all good travelers. The person making the observation, who
shall
remain nameless, said that they felt a need to jump in and help
but there were too many people to try to help all at once.
However, they soon realized that good techniques or bad, people
were getting where they needed to go without assistance, and
that
what appeared to be potentially frustrating to an observer was
not
the case for the traveler. This isn't meant to diminish the
role
of good travel techniques, only to make the point that there is
more to travel than techniques. Having said all this, though, I
also believe that what we have come to call structured discovery
is a valid difference in how one learns to travel. In some
ways,
it takes longer to learn but provides a better base from which
to
work. Some of us who did not attend NFB training centers have
adopted this approach on our own to some degree, but we would
probably have adopted it more easily having had training in an
NFB
center.
I have seen somewhat of a pattern in a number of your messages.
Often, you start rejecting a position that some of us have
taken.
Then, when you hear the stories that some have told, you seem to
be more open to the possibility that there are sometimes reasons
for positions we might have taken. I won't bore you with the
details of the time I almost missed a flight because I allowed
myself to be talked into waiting for a cart, only to have one
not
be available for close to an hour, and how the airline employee
refused to tell me which gate I needed to get to. Anyway, some
of
what you are hearing here would have been a part of your
training
at an NFB Center. You would likely have been given the chance
to
interact personally with people who had similar experiences so
that you could ask them questions. You can get some of this
information here, of course, but what about the many experiences
that
are not discussed?
Still, I think it makes sense to be careful not to judge one
another.
My goal is not to convince you how bad your training was,
because
it might be all right. I feel pretty certain that there are
things you didn't get that you would have gotten had you spent
time in one of our centers as indicated above, but I don't
really
think that is the point. The point is how can we help you now
and
how can you help us and other blind people? Are there things
you
are not comfortable doing that perhaps someone else here is
comfortable doing? We could even explore here some of the
things
that many of us have overcome as a result of the encouragement
from
others.
Sure, I'd like to have the words to make you see things exactly
as
I see them, isn't that always true? In the end, though, I don't
care that much whether you believe there is a difference in
training centers or not. I care more that you have what you
need
to get a job when you get out of college and that you are able
to
live as full a life as you can live, and I believe there are
ways
we can help you do that.
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:09:07 -0500, Kelby Carlson wrote:
I keep hearing this in NFB literature and from
federationists-that
my local training simply must have been far, far inferior to
anything the NFB has. I have as of yet seen no actual compelling
evidence for this claim, and no one I know well in the NFB has
offered me convincing reasons as to why the training I have is
bad. (Those who don't know me can't offer any reasons, as they
don't know my context.) If NFB mobility is so wonderful, I wish
they would allow people interested to pay for a little
instruction
to get a sense of their methodology in real space time rather
than
forcing people to commit to six to nine months.
Kelby
----- Original Message -----
From: cheryl echevarria <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com
To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent: Thu,
21 Mar 2013 23:56:35 -0400
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
Well we all need good mobility skills. A dog is not a
replacement
for mobility skills. Whether you use a cane, sighted guide, or a
guide dog.
If you haven't been to an NFB School over the training you get
locally then you don't know what you are missing.
Never going to them myself. I have seen what someone with no
knowledge of any of the services or very little in there own
areas, and come back from our schools with the confidence and the
mobility and the other services that are given there.
If NFB is interested in forming a guide dog school on the NFB's
philosophy then it comes with the first steps in mobility and
then
a dog. I have not been blind all my life. I lost my vision as
an
adult, and I learned the mobility and cane skills, my dog doesn't
know when to cross the street, I have to give him the direction
to do
so.
Know if I am mistaken in what is being said, I am the first to
mention when I am wrong, but there will be a day that we will
either not want to take our dogs places, by our own choice, or in
between a dog, or whatever the issues are. That I know the
skills
to get me where I want to go whether it is with my Maxx or not.
Have a great night all.
Take care and god bless.
Whatever decision is met and decided should be done with kindness
to one another; and with the philosophy of the great
organization.
Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentNFB Travel & Tourism
Disabled Entrepreneur of the Year 2012 of NY State Leading the
Way
in Independent Travel!SNG Certified - Accessible Travel
Advocate!Cheryl Echevarria,
Ownerhttp://www.echevarriatravel.com631-456-5394reservations@eche
varriatravel.comhttp://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com2012
Norwegian Cruise Line University Advisory Board Member.
Affiliated as an independent contractor with Montrose TravelCST -
#1018299-10Echevarria Travel and proud member of the National
Federation of the Blind will be holding a year round fundraiser
for the http://www.NFBNY.org after Hurricane Sandy and other
resources.
Any vacation package booked between November 6 2012-November 6,
2013 and vacation must be traveled no later than
12/30/2014 a percentage of my earnings will go to the affiliate.
Also is you book a Sandals for couples or Beaches for families
and
friends resorts vacation, $100.00 per booking will go to the
affiliate as well. You do not need to be a member of the
NFB.org,
just book through us.
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:18:49 -0500
From: kelbycarlson at gmail.com
To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
Scenario
I'll echo what Cindysaid. There isno way I would give up that
much time for mobility training I already had purely for the
purpose of getting a dog. ZPeter said, I would go somewhere else
straightaway.
Kelby
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cindy Handel" <cindy425 at verizon.net
To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org Date sent:
Thu,
21 Mar 2013 21:56:01 -0400
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible
Scenario
When the NFB centers were started, many years ago, there was a
real lack of quality training for blind people. I don't really
think that's the case with guide schools. There are some
schools
which do things differently from others. But, there are people
who prefer one approach over another. I don't really think that
NFB needs to get involved with guide dog training.
As for Peter's suggestion that students would go through the
nine
month NFB center training, first, this will severely limit the
number of people choosing to have training from an NFB guide
dog
school, should one be started. I don't know to many people who
can give up a year of their life to get a guide dog.
Cindy
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Donahue
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:25 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: [Blindtlk] NFB Guide Dog School, A Possible Scenario
Good afternoon Julie and everyone,
Julie and I have had many conversations on this issue in the
past so she knows where I'm coming from. In line with her
comments below I'd like to suggest a possible scenario for an
NFB-run guide dog program:
Since we all ready have three orientation and adjustment
centers for blind adults and youth there would be no need for a
facility for housing students in training to be constructed.
Hold on folks.
Students
wishing to
obtain a guide dog from the NFB's program would be required to
complete the
6-9 month program at one of the centers. During the student's
"Bootcamp training" the center has an opportunity to come to
know
the student inside-out and will be able to furnish lots of
background information on the applicant to the guide dog unit.
Unlike current guide dog programs that must rely on references
and other information that may be true or false the NFB guide
dog program will have all ready had accurate information
gathered
for them by the training center and can be assured that the
applicant is a suitable candidate for a dog.
This approach will also assure the guide dog program that
the
student is up-to-par with their cane skills and is capable of
transferring them to the use of a dog. Students that
successfully complete the cane travel component of their
immersion training would be eligible to receive a dog.
This
approach would also permit students receiving a dog to complete
other aspects of their immersion training minimizing the wasted
time students often experience when at guide dog training
facilities.
Students undergoing guide dog instruction would be required
to wear sleep shades as they do when taking other center classes
and participating in designated center activities. Like
students
who undergo cane travel instruction at our centers those
training
with dogs would be encouraged to travel on their own prior to
completion of the training. In the beginning they could be
accompanied by an experienced guide dog user/trainer but would
be
expected to travel and complete "Monster Routes" entirely on
their
own using their dogs.
As for the dog component of the operation I imagine it would
operate similar to those of current guide dog programs. The
program would operate its own breeding component or obtain
suitable dogs from donations. The usual period of socialization
and puppy raising wouldn't be that much different than is done
by
current guide dog programs. The dogs would return for a period
of training when they're taught how to guide a blind person.
Once the dogs are ready to be pared with their future blind
owner
they along with an instructor would be sent to the center where
the student receiving the dog will be trained. Alternatively
the
NFB guide dog program could operate from one of our centers.
Those wishing to obtain dogs once their "Bootcamp"
training is complete would transfer to that center for training
with the dog. Using all ready existing facilities to house
students in training is one way to reduce the cost of training
guide
dogs.
The above is just one possible scenario of how an NFB-run
guide dog program could work but I'm sure others would have
additional ideas. If it's to happen at all the discussion must
continue at a cost of 0 to participants. All the best.
Peter Donahue
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie J." <julielj at neb.rr.com
To: "Blind Talk Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Canes and Dogs, the In-House Checkup
I think the answer to protecting the dogs is two fold. First I
would like to see a more in depth background investigation of
the
blind applicant. Do a criminal background check, require more
references, ask the neighbors...whatever it takes. Adoption
agencies place children into homes surely we can figure out a
way to more accurately know what sort of situation the dog will
be
placed into.
Secondly, I think there are already agencies in place for
dealing with animal abuse, the police and animal control. I
don't see any reason why these agencies can't be used in cases
of neglect or abuse.
In regard to cost and the blind applicant absorbing the cost of
the dog in order to own the dog outright is an extremely valid
point.
We
have
to stop expecting everything for nothing. I like the Seeing
Eye's concept of charging the student. I do wish that the cost
had increased over the years with the cost of living. It has
been $150 since the beginning of the school in 1928. I think
that's the right year.
$150
was a very different sum of money then and now.
I also think that guide dogs can be raised and trained for
substantially lower sums of money than $60,000. If you look at
the various guide dog programs and how much each claims it costs
to train a dog, the numbers vary widely. All those buildings,
fancy food, excessive equipment and other niceties cost money.
Julie
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