[Blindtlk] Echolocation: How it Works

Mon Sep 8 15:25:52 UTC 2014

Julie,

I am aware of the clickers you mention, and they do work to some degree.  What I was thinking of, though, would be 
a sound source that would be much more subtle and could be turned on and off but not repeatedly activated as one 
activates a clicker.  For example, the sound made by the sound that a multispeed bicycle makes is a good source 
for echolocation.

Also, at least for my part, I would not advocate that anyone use echolocation without a cane or a dog.  For one 
thing, I need to talk with people while walking sometimes, and at least for me, echolocation did not pick up steps 
going down, for example.  Also, I do not believe that one can educate the public on this sort of skill in the same 
way as one can educate the public on the use of a cane.  The cane, when used, can be identified visually as the 
sort of cane that a blind person uses.  It is clearly a cane for travel rather than, for example, one that might 
be used for support.  As I mentioned before, making unusual sounds is something that is associated with some other 
developmental disabilities, and it isn't going to be readily apparent why such sounds are being made.  I am glad 
to see that there has been some publicity in recent years about echolocation, as it can be a helpful skill.  
However, I also think there has to be some care taken as to how we go about using it and how it is sold to us as 
blind people and to the public.  

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Mon, 8 Sep 2014 06:01:37 -0500, Julie J. via blindtlk wrote:

>They make clickers that are mechanical.   they aren't electronic, just a 
>piece of metal bent in such a way that when you push it, it makes a click 
>sound.  they cost about $1 and can be found in any pet store.  they were 
>first used in dolphin training, but are now used in all sorts of animal 
>training.

>I'm not sure that it's much more socially acceptable to go around clicking 
>one of these things than it would be to do the tongue click though. 
>Probably a bit, but I still think you'd look odd unless you had a dog along 
>that you were training.

>I'd also like to add a note about the concept of socially acceptable.   the 
>cane is considered socially acceptable because we, blind folks, have made it 
>so.  If, instead many moons ago, ancient blind folks decided that the click 
>noise was the way to go and used that and educated sighted folks on that, 
>then the clicks would be what is socially acceptable.  It's all in the 
>history and the perception.  There is nothing more or less weird about the 
>clicking.  It's just not what we are used to.  If all blind people 
>everywhere decided to use exclusively echolocation and use clicking, it 
>would soon become the norm and socially acceptable.

>Just sayin'
>Julie

>-----Original Message----- 
>From: Steve Jacobson via blindtlk
>Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2014 9:25 PM
>To: Christine Olivares via blindtlk
>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Echolocation: How it Works

>Part of the challenge is that one feels a little conspicuous clicking 
>sometimes as that is sometimes associated with other developmental 
>disabilities.  It is too
>bad in a way because it is effective.  I have found that I can get some of 
>the same information, though, from the tapping of my cane, snapping my 
>fingers,
>and from rattling keys.  I have sometimes thought that some sort of 
>electronic sound source could be developed that could be even more effective 
>and also
>more socially acceptable.

>Best regards,

>Steve Jacobson

>On Sun, 7 Sep 2014 20:23:10 -0400, Christine Olivares via blindtlk wrote:

>>Hello all,
>>I have a totally blind friend who uses echo location but he does not click. 
>>He will use his foot and stamp on the ground or floor. On the other hand, 
>>my
>husband is also blind and he doesnâ¬"t need to click with his tongue. He can 
>â¬Shearâ¬ buildings or objects approach, which would prevent him from running
>into them. In college, we had to cross a driveway. when I was with him, I 
>would ask, â¬SIs there a car today?â¬ Nine times out of ten he could tell if a 
>car was
>blocking the path, which I could see so I could verify it.

>>I think different people can access this echo location different ways, and 
>>maybe it is just easier for some people to click. I canâ¬"t judge it as I donâ¬"t 
>>have
>this skill.

>>God bless,
>>Christine
>>On Sep 7, 2014, at 7:53 PM, Larry Wayland via blindtlk 
>><blindtlk at nfbnet.org> wrote:

>>> Yes, object perception works, but I don't think it works to the point 
>>> some
>>> of these people who clame to use echoLocation does. I agree the tapping 
>>> of
>>> the cane should work just as well and be much more acceptable.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Judy 
>>> Jones
>>> via blindtlk
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2014 6:26 PM
>>> To: Chris Nusbaum; Blind Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Echolocation: How it Works
>>>
>>> To my mind, the clicking required is not socially acceptable.  I'm a firm
>>> believer in object perception, though, and that it works.  Plus the fact,
>>> the tapping of a cane can substitute for clicking.  Just my opinion.
>>>
>>> Judy
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Chris Nusbaum via blindtlk
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 7, 2014 3:49 PM
>>> To: 'Larry Wayland' ; 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Echolocation: How it Works
>>>
>>> I don't get it, but I know people who have attained quite a bit of skill 
>>> in
>>> echolocation. According to Dan Kish, a personal friend and one of the 
>>> people
>>> who pioneered the concept, it's a learned skill and not a natural talent.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry
>>> Wayland via blindtlk
>>> Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2014 11:22 PM
>>> To: 'Bryan Schulz'; 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Making a Difference, (Cont.): Bringing the right
>>> attitude out
>>>
>>> Some of the clames I have heard about EchoLocation is, in my opinion, way
>>> above the capability of the human ear.  This is probably going to be 
>>> another
>>> one of these false things we have to explain all the time along with not
>>> having super hearing, identifying dollar bills, and colors  by touch.
>>> Larry
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bryan
>>> Schulz via blindtlk
>>> Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2014 12:34 PM
>>> To: Carly Mihalakis; Blind Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Making a Difference, (Cont.): Bringing the right
>>> attitude out
>>>
>>> hi,
>>>
>>> when sighted people didn't understand why you were clucking, did anyone 
>>> ask
>>> if you lay eggs?
>>> even i have learned that it is better for someone to see you with a cane
>>> instead of looking like a drunk!
>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Carly Mihalakis via blindtlk" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>> To: "Christine Olivares" <rafael4490 at gmail.com>; "Blind Talk Mailing 
>>> List"
>>> <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>; "Marsha" <marcatony at yahoo.com>; "Blind Talk 
>>> Mailing
>>> List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: "Eric Calhoun" <eric at pmpmail.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2014 9:06 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Making a Difference, (Cont.): Bringing the right
>>> attitude out
>>>
>>>
>>>> Good morning, Christine,
>>>>
>>>>        In elementary school although I am a total, I, too, never used
>>>> a cane finding that my orientation of the schools lay-out, coupled
>>>> with echolocation was enough to get me around. I bet you also have
>>>> pretty refined echolocation?
>>>> for today, Car
>>>> impairment and don't always use a cane. As I have mentioned, I am from
>>>> a small town born and raised. This means I am very familiar with my
>>>> surroundings so I don't always use my cane. Judging someone because
>>>> he/she is blind is ridiculous.
>>>>
>>>>> I think this whole thing of asking someone to move is awful unless
>>>>> it's an emergency. I think we should never judge someone. How would
>>>>> you like if someone didn't see your cane and said, "Oh, you're not
>>>>> blind." Eric, would you like that? I don't think you would appreciate
>>>>> being judged, assume this woman was blind. Not only that, but she is a
>>> woman for Gosh sakes.
>>>>> Where is the respect men should give women? Chivalry has gone right
>>>>> out the window, but that's a discussion for another day.
>>>>>
>>>>> God bless,
>>>>> Christine
>>>>> On Sep 3, 2014, at 7:08 AM, Marsha via blindtlk <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> HI
>>>>>> Since when does not having a cane mean that you aren't
>>>>> blind.  Very very judgmental.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>
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