[Blindtlk] Echolocation: How it Works

Mon Sep 8 18:50:21 UTC 2014

Agreed.

-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
Jacobson via blindtlk
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2014 11:26 AM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List; Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Echolocation: How it Works

Julie,

I am aware of the clickers you mention, and they do work to some degree.
What I was thinking of, though, would be a sound source that would be much
more subtle and could be turned on and off but not repeatedly activated as
one activates a clicker.  For example, the sound made by the sound that a
multispeed bicycle makes is a good source for echolocation.

Also, at least for my part, I would not advocate that anyone use
echolocation without a cane or a dog.  For one thing, I need to talk with
people while walking sometimes, and at least for me, echolocation did not
pick up steps going down, for example.  Also, I do not believe that one can
educate the public on this sort of skill in the same way as one can educate
the public on the use of a cane.  The cane, when used, can be identified
visually as the sort of cane that a blind person uses.  It is clearly a cane
for travel rather than, for example, one that might be used for support.  As
I mentioned before, making unusual sounds is something that is associated
with some other developmental disabilities, and it isn't going to be readily
apparent why such sounds are being made.  I am glad to see that there has
been some publicity in recent years about echolocation, as it can be a
helpful skill.  
However, I also think there has to be some care taken as to how we go about
using it and how it is sold to us as blind people and to the public.  

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Mon, 8 Sep 2014 06:01:37 -0500, Julie J. via blindtlk wrote:

>They make clickers that are mechanical.   they aren't electronic, just a 
>piece of metal bent in such a way that when you push it, it makes a 
>click sound.  they cost about $1 and can be found in any pet store.  
>they were first used in dolphin training, but are now used in all sorts 
>of animal training.

>I'm not sure that it's much more socially acceptable to go around 
>clicking one of these things than it would be to do the tongue click
though.
>Probably a bit, but I still think you'd look odd unless you had a dog 
>along that you were training.

>I'd also like to add a note about the concept of socially acceptable.   the

>cane is considered socially acceptable because we, blind folks, have 
>made it so.  If, instead many moons ago, ancient blind folks decided 
>that the click noise was the way to go and used that and educated 
>sighted folks on that, then the clicks would be what is socially 
>acceptable.  It's all in the history and the perception.  There is 
>nothing more or less weird about the clicking.  It's just not what we 
>are used to.  If all blind people everywhere decided to use exclusively 
>echolocation and use clicking, it would soon become the norm and socially
acceptable.

>Just sayin'
>Julie

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Steve Jacobson via blindtlk
>Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2014 9:25 PM
>To: Christine Olivares via blindtlk
>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Echolocation: How it Works

>Part of the challenge is that one feels a little conspicuous clicking 
>sometimes as that is sometimes associated with other developmental 
>disabilities.  It is too bad in a way because it is effective.  I have 
>found that I can get some of the same information, though, from the 
>tapping of my cane, snapping my fingers, and from rattling keys.  I 
>have sometimes thought that some sort of electronic sound source could 
>be developed that could be even more effective and also more socially 
>acceptable.

>Best regards,

>Steve Jacobson

>On Sun, 7 Sep 2014 20:23:10 -0400, Christine Olivares via blindtlk wrote:

>>Hello all,
>>I have a totally blind friend who uses echo location but he does not
click. 
>>He will use his foot and stamp on the ground or floor. On the other 
>>hand, my
>husband is also blind and he doesnâ¬"t need to click with his tongue. 
>He can â¬Shearâ¬ buildings or objects approach, which would prevent 
>him from running into them. In college, we had to cross a driveway. 
>when I was with him, I would ask, â¬SIs there a car today?â¬ Nine 
>times out of ten he could tell if a car was blocking the path, which I 
>could see so I could verify it.

>>I think different people can access this echo location different ways, 
>>and maybe it is just easier for some people to click. I canâ¬"t judge 
>>it as I donâ¬"t have
>this skill.

>>God bless,
>>Christine
>>On Sep 7, 2014, at 7:53 PM, Larry Wayland via blindtlk 
>><blindtlk at nfbnet.org> wrote:

>>> Yes, object perception works, but I don't think it works to the 
>>> point some of these people who clame to use echoLocation does. I 
>>> agree the tapping of the cane should work just as well and be much 
>>> more acceptable.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>>> Judy Jones via blindtlk
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2014 6:26 PM
>>> To: Chris Nusbaum; Blind Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Echolocation: How it Works
>>>
>>> To my mind, the clicking required is not socially acceptable.  I'm a 
>>> firm believer in object perception, though, and that it works.  Plus 
>>> the fact, the tapping of a cane can substitute for clicking.  Just my
opinion.
>>>
>>> Judy
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Chris Nusbaum via blindtlk
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 7, 2014 3:49 PM
>>> To: 'Larry Wayland' ; 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
>>> Subject: [Blindtlk] Echolocation: How it Works
>>>
>>> I don't get it, but I know people who have attained quite a bit of 
>>> skill in echolocation. According to Dan Kish, a personal friend and 
>>> one of the people who pioneered the concept, it's a learned skill 
>>> and not a natural talent.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>>> Larry Wayland via blindtlk
>>> Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2014 11:22 PM
>>> To: 'Bryan Schulz'; 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Making a Difference, (Cont.): Bringing the 
>>> right attitude out
>>>
>>> Some of the clames I have heard about EchoLocation is, in my 
>>> opinion, way above the capability of the human ear.  This is 
>>> probably going to be another one of these false things we have to 
>>> explain all the time along with not having super hearing, 
>>> identifying dollar bills, and colors  by touch.
>>> Larry
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>>> Bryan Schulz via blindtlk
>>> Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2014 12:34 PM
>>> To: Carly Mihalakis; Blind Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Making a Difference, (Cont.): Bringing the 
>>> right attitude out
>>>
>>> hi,
>>>
>>> when sighted people didn't understand why you were clucking, did 
>>> anyone ask if you lay eggs?
>>> even i have learned that it is better for someone to see you with a 
>>> cane instead of looking like a drunk!
>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Carly Mihalakis via blindtlk" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>> To: "Christine Olivares" <rafael4490 at gmail.com>; "Blind Talk Mailing 
>>> List"
>>> <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>; "Marsha" <marcatony at yahoo.com>; "Blind Talk 
>>> Mailing List" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: "Eric Calhoun" <eric at pmpmail.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2014 9:06 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Making a Difference, (Cont.): Bringing the 
>>> right attitude out
>>>
>>>
>>>> Good morning, Christine,
>>>>
>>>>        In elementary school although I am a total, I, too, never 
>>>> used a cane finding that my orientation of the schools lay-out, 
>>>> coupled with echolocation was enough to get me around. I bet you 
>>>> also have pretty refined echolocation?
>>>> for today, Car
>>>> impairment and don't always use a cane. As I have mentioned, I am 
>>>> from a small town born and raised. This means I am very familiar 
>>>> with my surroundings so I don't always use my cane. Judging someone 
>>>> because he/she is blind is ridiculous.
>>>>
>>>>> I think this whole thing of asking someone to move is awful unless 
>>>>> it's an emergency. I think we should never judge someone. How 
>>>>> would you like if someone didn't see your cane and said, "Oh, 
>>>>> you're not blind." Eric, would you like that? I don't think you 
>>>>> would appreciate being judged, assume this woman was blind. Not 
>>>>> only that, but she is a
>>> woman for Gosh sakes.
>>>>> Where is the respect men should give women? Chivalry has gone 
>>>>> right out the window, but that's a discussion for another day.
>>>>>
>>>>> God bless,
>>>>> Christine
>>>>> On Sep 3, 2014, at 7:08 AM, Marsha via blindtlk 
>>>>> <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> HI
>>>>>> Since when does not having a cane mean that you aren't
>>>>> blind.  Very very judgmental.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>
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