[Blindtlk] Echolocation: How it Works
Gary Wunder
gwunder at earthlink.net
Fri Sep 12 00:29:32 UTC 2014
I agree with you. The cane is useful but it is a tool, sometimes an inconvenient one. If we come up with a replacement for it that does what it does and more, my identity will not change--just my tool.
-----Original Message-----
From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman via blindtlk
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 12:23 AM
To: Judy Jones; Blind Talk Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Echolocation: How it Works
Hi all,
Interesting discussion. Wile I use my cane all the time and believe it is tremendously helpful, we all know that needing to use a cane can be incredibly inconvenient at times, such as if we need to carry a heavy box, and there are other times, like while riding a bike, when a cane is ineffective. In fact, sometimes I think needing to tie up one hand with a cane is more limiting than is blindness itself. And canes create their own social awkwardnesses. All that is to say that if we could perfect a travel technique that didn't rely on an external object like a cane, or a living being like a dog, then I would be all for it. If echolocation were good enough that I could ride a bike independently and cross busy streets without my cane, I'd be all for it. Unfortunately I have yet to know anyone who can truly use echolocation in place of a cane and be an optimally safe traveler.
Some of you may remember Ben Underwood, the blind teen who was featured on Oprah and claimed to use echolocation as his sole mobility aid. But I also heard from one of his camp counselors that he frequently bumped into things.
Arielle
On 9/10/14, Judy Jones via blindtlk <blindtlk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> A better test is to move your hand back and forth beside your ear,
> while you
>
> hum or make some noise. That is a simplified demonstration of what I am
> calling object perception, but I have used that as group facilitator
> for sighted workshops and classes, and everyone can hear sound
> bouncing off an object, in this case, their hand, close to the ear. I
> will agree, though, that most people do not recognize object
> perception for what it is, so have
>
> never felt a need to develop it as a distinct skill or help.
>
> Judy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gary Wunder via blindtlk
> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 10:00 AM
> To: 'Steve Jacobson' ; 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Echolocation: How it Works
>
> When I have talked with Daniel Kish with the thought of doing an
> article for the Braille Monitor, I read some of their material. I
> don't believe that they suggest this is a substitute for the cane but
> in enhancement of what one can perceive. Whether we like the idea of
> making clicking noises or not, I bet we have all used finger snaps,
> toe taps, or some other noise in the environment. I grew up thinking
> that everyone had echolocation. I didn't know that that was its name,
> but people were so amazed that I had it that one day I wanted to show
> my aunt that she too could do it. I took her to our garage door, made
> her back up about ten steps, convinced her to close her eyes, and
> confidently said that if she only walked forward until she heard the
> reflected noise, she would be all right. The only noise that both of
> us heard was her hitting the door. I was surprised. She was angry. So,
> while the skill seems to have come naturally to me, I am prepared to
> say that not everyone has it.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
> Jacobson via blindtlk
> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2014 2:43 PM
> To: Larry Wayland via blindtlk
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Echolocation: How it Works
>
> I could detect poles when I was younger and still can sometimes as
> well as objects sitting in the middle of a sidewalk. I'm not
> advocating not using a cane, though, just trying to contribute to the
> understanding of the technique. There may be people who can detect
> steps down but I can't say I was ever good at it. Although there is
> nothing for sound to bounce off of, one can here the constant surface
> of a sidewalk or floor. Therefore, if one can detect the absence of
> that surface in front of them, one might deduce that there was a step
> down. One might be able to tell that the surface is lower in front of
> them thus indicating a step down. It is hard to explain, but you hear
> more than you would think, but one's ability to hear such things can
> be affected by the noise that is around them, so it does not replace a
> cane in my opinion.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Mon, 8 Sep 2014 12:10:23 -0500, Larry Wayland via blindtlk wrote:
>
>>No, there would be nothing for the sound to bounce off of.
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>Sherri via blindtlk
>>Sent: Monday, September 08, 2014 7:52 AM
>>To: Cindy Ray; Blind Talk Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Echolocation: How it Works
>
>>I don't see how anyone can echolocate down-going curbs, objects,
>>holes,
> etc.
>>without a cane. Can anyone do that?
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Cindy Ray via blindtlk" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>To: "Robin" <robin-melvin at comcast.net>; "Blind Talk Mailing List"
>><blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Monday, September 08, 2014 8:21 AM
>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Echolocation: How it Works
>
>
>>Well, I have used finger snapping, clicking of the tongue sometimes,
>>the cane, whatever. But I canâ¬"t see how you can use this echo
>>location
> without a
>>cane or something. I donâ¬"t think you can travel as quickly, you are
>>less likely to know until too late that you are stepping off of an
>>edged sidewalk, and if there is construction or lawn mowers going echo
>>location does not work. I used to not use a cane at school, and they
>>used to edge
> the
>>sidewalks.
>
>>Cindy
>
>>On Sep 8, 2014, at 7:15 AM, Robin via blindtlk <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>
>>> Regarding the instruction of EchoLocation (i.e., FlashSonar), 2 of
>>> the people I hear who train people in its use are Justin Louchart
>>> and Daniel Kish.
>>>
>>> Daniel Kish is probably the individual, who demonstrated cycling
>>> using EchoLocation (i.e., FlashSonar).
>>>
>>> I've heard he has established a NonProfit Organization in Southern
>>> California (World Access for the Blind), and frequently travels the
>>> world
>
>>> teaching its use. He is also the individual, who taught Ben
>>> Underwood,
> who
>>> Passed Away.
>>>
>>> What is more "socially acceptable" a White Cane or a GuideDog, a
>>> White Cane or "Tongue Clicking, Tongue Clicking or a GuideDog? I say
>>> whatever works although it would greatly enhance an individual's
>>> repitoire if he/she possessed at least 2 of the 3 Mobility skills to
>>> rely on. This is just my personal opinion. I don't really care if it
>>> is "socially acceptable" or not
>>>
>>> At 04:01 AM 9/8/2014, you wrote:
>>>> They make clickers that are mechanical. they aren't electronic, just
>>>> a
>
>>>> piece of metal bent in such a way that when you push it, it makes a
> click
>>>> sound. they cost about $1 and can be found in any pet store. they
>>>> were
>
>>>> first used in dolphin training, but are now used in all sorts of
>>>> animal training. I'm not sure that it's much more socially
>>>> acceptable to go around clicking one of these things than it would
>>>> be to do the tongue click though. Probably a bit, but I still think
>>>> you'd look odd unless
> you
>>>> had a dog along that you were training. I'd also like to add a note
> about
>>>> the concept of socially acceptable. the cane is considered socially
>>>> acceptable because we, blind folks, have made it so. If, instead
>>>> many moons ago, ancient blind folks decided that the click noise
>>>> was the way to go and used that and educated sighted folks on that,
>>>> then the clicks would be what is socially acceptable. It's all in
>>>> the history and the perception. There is nothing more or less weird about the clicking.
>>>> It's just not what we are used to. If all blind people everywhere
>>>> decided to use exclusively echolocation and use clicking, it would
>>>> soon become the norm and socially acceptable. Just sayin' Julie
>>>> -----Original
>
>>>> Message----- From: Steve Jacobson via blindtlk Sent: Sunday,
>>>> September 07, 2014 9:25 PM To: Christine Olivares via blindtlk Subject: Re:
>>>> [Blindtlk] Echolocation: How it Works Part of the challenge is that
>>>> one feels a little conspicuous clicking sometimes as that is
>>>> sometimes associated with other developmental disabilities. It is
>>>> too bad in a
> way
>>>> because it is effective. I have found that I can get some of the
>>>> same information, though, from the tapping of my cane, snapping my
>>>> fingers, and from rattling keys. I have sometimes thought that
>>>> some sort of electronic sound source could be developed that could
>>>> be even more effective and also more socially acceptable. Best
>>>> regards, Steve
> Jacobson
>>>> On Sun, 7 Sep 2014 20:23:10 -0400, Christine Olivares via blindtlk
> wrote:
>>>> >Hello all, >I have a totally blind friend who uses echo location
>>>> but
> he
>>>> does not click. >He will use his foot and stamp on the ground or floor.
>>>> On the other hand, >my husband is also blind and he doesnââ> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>> HI >>>>> Since when does not
>>>> having a cane mean that you aren't >>>> blind. Very very judgmental.
>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Marsha >>>>> >>>>>
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