[Blindtlk] Echolocation: How it Works

Thu Sep 11 04:23:12 UTC 2014

Hi all,
Interesting discussion. Wile I use my cane all the time and believe it
is tremendously helpful, we all know that needing to use a cane can be
incredibly inconvenient at times, such as if we need to carry a heavy
box, and there are other times, like while riding a bike, when a cane
is ineffective. In fact, sometimes I think needing to tie up one hand
with a cane is more limiting than is blindness itself. And canes
create their own social awkwardnesses. All that is to say that if we
could perfect a travel technique that didn't rely on an external
object like a cane, or a living being like a dog, then I would be all
for it. If echolocation were good enough that I could ride a bike
independently and cross busy streets without my cane, I'd be all for
it. Unfortunately I have yet to know anyone who can truly use
echolocation in place of a cane and be an optimally safe traveler.
Some of you may remember Ben Underwood, the blind teen who was
featured on Oprah and claimed to use echolocation as his sole mobility
aid. But I also heard from one of his camp counselors that he
frequently bumped into things.
Arielle

On 9/10/14, Judy Jones via blindtlk <blindtlk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> A better test is to move your hand back and forth beside your ear, while you
>
> hum or make some noise.   That is a simplified demonstration of what I am
> calling object perception, but I have used that as group facilitator for
> sighted workshops and classes, and everyone can hear sound bouncing off an
> object, in this case, their hand, close to the ear.  I will agree, though,
> that most people do not recognize object perception for what it is, so have
>
> never felt a need to develop it as a distinct skill or help.
>
> Judy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gary Wunder via blindtlk
> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 10:00 AM
> To: 'Steve Jacobson' ; 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Echolocation: How it Works
>
> When I have talked with Daniel Kish with the thought of doing an article
> for
> the Braille Monitor, I read some of their material. I don't believe that
> they suggest this is a substitute for the cane but in enhancement of what
> one can perceive. Whether we like the idea of making clicking noises or
> not,
> I bet we have all used finger snaps, toe taps, or some other noise in the
> environment. I grew up thinking that everyone had echolocation. I didn't
> know that that was its name, but people were so amazed that I had it that
> one day I wanted to show my aunt that she too could do it. I took her to
> our
> garage door, made her back up about ten steps, convinced her to close her
> eyes, and confidently said that if she only walked forward until she heard
> the reflected noise, she would be all right. The only noise that both of us
> heard was her hitting the door. I was surprised. She was angry. So, while
> the skill seems to have come naturally to me, I am prepared to say that not
> everyone has it.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
> Jacobson via blindtlk
> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2014 2:43 PM
> To: Larry Wayland via blindtlk
> Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Echolocation: How it Works
>
> I could detect poles when I was younger and still can sometimes as well as
> objects sitting in the middle of a sidewalk. I'm not advocating not using a
> cane, though, just trying to contribute to the understanding of the
> technique.  There may be people who can detect steps down but I can't say I
> was ever good at it.  Although there is nothing for sound to bounce off of,
> one can here the constant surface of a sidewalk or floor.  Therefore, if
> one
> can detect the absence of that surface in front of them, one might deduce
> that there was a step down.  One might be able to tell that the surface is
> lower in front of them thus indicating a step down.  It is hard to explain,
> but you hear more than you would think, but one's ability to hear such
> things can be affected by the noise that is around them, so it does not
> replace a cane in my opinion.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Mon, 8 Sep 2014 12:10:23 -0500, Larry Wayland via blindtlk wrote:
>
>>No, there would be nothing for the sound to bounce off of.
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: blindtlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sherri
>>via blindtlk
>>Sent: Monday, September 08, 2014 7:52 AM
>>To: Cindy Ray; Blind Talk Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Echolocation: How it Works
>
>>I don't see how anyone can echolocate down-going curbs, objects, holes,
> etc.
>>without a cane. Can anyone do that?
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Cindy Ray via blindtlk" <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>To: "Robin" <robin-melvin at comcast.net>; "Blind Talk Mailing List"
>><blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Monday, September 08, 2014 8:21 AM
>>Subject: Re: [Blindtlk] Echolocation: How it Works
>
>
>>Well, I have used finger snapping, clicking of the tongue sometimes, the
>>cane, whatever. But I canâ¬"t see how you can use this echo location
> without a
>>cane or something. I donâ¬"t think you can travel as quickly, you are less
>>likely to know until too late that you are stepping off of an edged
>>sidewalk, and if there is construction or lawn mowers going echo location
>>does not work. I used to not use a cane at school, and they used to edge
> the
>>sidewalks.
>
>>Cindy
>
>>On Sep 8, 2014, at 7:15 AM, Robin via blindtlk <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>
>>> Regarding the instruction of EchoLocation (i.e., FlashSonar), 2 of the
>>> people I hear who train people in its use are Justin Louchart and Daniel
>>> Kish.
>>>
>>> Daniel Kish is probably the individual, who demonstrated cycling using
>>> EchoLocation (i.e., FlashSonar).
>>>
>>> I've heard he has established a NonProfit Organization in Southern
>>> California (World Access for the Blind), and frequently travels the
>>> world
>
>>> teaching its use. He is also the individual, who taught Ben Underwood,
> who
>>> Passed Away.
>>>
>>> What is more "socially acceptable" a White Cane or a GuideDog, a White
>>> Cane or "Tongue Clicking, Tongue Clicking or a GuideDog? I say whatever
>>> works although it would greatly enhance an individual's repitoire if
>>> he/she possessed at least 2 of the 3 Mobility skills to rely on. This is
>>> just my personal opinion. I don't really care if it is "socially
>>> acceptable" or not
>>>
>>> At 04:01 AM 9/8/2014, you wrote:
>>>> They make clickers that are mechanical.   they aren't electronic, just
>>>> a
>
>>>> piece of metal bent in such a way that when you push it, it makes a
> click
>>>> sound.  they cost about $1 and can be found in any pet store.  they
>>>> were
>
>>>> first used in dolphin training, but are now used in all sorts of animal
>>>> training. I'm not sure that it's much more socially acceptable to go
>>>> around clicking one of these things than it would be to do the tongue
>>>> click though. Probably a bit, but I still think you'd look odd unless
> you
>>>> had a dog along that you were training. I'd also like to add a note
> about
>>>> the concept of socially acceptable.   the cane is considered socially
>>>> acceptable because we, blind folks, have made it so.  If, instead many
>>>> moons ago, ancient blind folks decided that the click noise was the way
>>>> to go and used that and educated sighted folks on that, then the clicks
>>>> would be what is socially acceptable.  It's all in the history and the
>>>> perception.  There is nothing more or less weird about the clicking.
>>>> It's just not what we are used to.  If all blind people everywhere
>>>> decided to use exclusively echolocation and use clicking, it would soon
>>>> become the norm and socially acceptable. Just sayin' Julie
>>>> -----Original
>
>>>> Message----- From: Steve Jacobson via blindtlk Sent: Sunday, September
>>>> 07, 2014 9:25 PM To: Christine Olivares via blindtlk Subject: Re:
>>>> [Blindtlk] Echolocation: How it Works Part of the challenge is that one
>>>> feels a little conspicuous clicking sometimes as that is sometimes
>>>> associated with other developmental disabilities.  It is too bad in a
> way
>>>> because it is effective.  I have found that I can get some of the same
>>>> information, though, from the tapping of my cane, snapping my fingers,
>>>> and from rattling keys.  I have sometimes thought that some sort of
>>>> electronic sound source could be developed that could be even more
>>>> effective and also more socially acceptable. Best regards, Steve
> Jacobson
>>>> On Sun, 7 Sep 2014 20:23:10 -0400, Christine Olivares via blindtlk
> wrote:
>>>>  >Hello all, >I have a totally blind friend who uses echo location but
> he
>>>> does not click. >He will use his foot and stamp on the ground or floor.
>>>> On the other hand, >my husband is also blind and he doesnÃ¢â> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>> HI >>>>> Since when does not
>>>> having a cane mean that you aren't >>>> blind.  Very very judgmental.
>>>>  >>>>> >>>>> Marsha >>>>> >>>>>
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