[BlindTlk] Computers for the blind

Fri Apr 19 16:07:57 UTC 2019

Devin and all,

As someone who has used Windows almost exclusively, I try very hard not to
say whether someone should use Windows or a MAC.  I think that what is
important is that as much accurate information be presented as possible.

First, regarding EMACS, my understanding is that is software written
originally to be run under Unix and Linux.  Therefore, what you are saying
really applies more to the EMACS software than MAC or Windows, although it
may well run better on a MAC.  I have heard of people running it under
Windows with other tools that allow some Unix utilities to run, but what I
think is missing is that there are other alternatives that a Windows user
might use to accomplish the same thing.  There are some text editors that
are almost integrated development environments themselves that may well do a
lot of what you are doing with EMACS.  I'm not trying to talk you into
anything, rather, I just want other Windows users to know that such options
exist.  While Word can be used to edit HTML, I agree that using Word to do
this is not always the best path.  I am not certain what you can do with
email threads on the MAC that is not supported under Windows, but I don't
claim to know that the MAC isn't better in some ways.  Some Windows programs
use different terminology.  Outlook, for example, does not use the term
"Thread" but rather refers to "conversations".  However, from what I do
know, it would seem that the capability is pretty complete.  I know of other
Windows email programs that also handle threads, but certainly not all
programs are created equal.  It just doesn't seem likely that handling
threads is a MAC/Windows issue.

>From what I have noticed regarding the MAC computers my kids have used, I
think Apple does a better job with smooth operating system updates than does
Windows.  This is an aspect of Apple software that I think definitely is the
case.  However, what needs to be understood is that Apple controls the
hardware and the operating system.  The Windows environment is different.
Microsoft exercises much less control over those who sell computers and this
results in updates that are not as smooth.  While I may think Microsoft
should exercise more control than they do, that doesn't change the fact that
the environment is different.  When you buy a MAC, you get fairly robust
hardware that is pretty much guaranteed to do a very good job.  When you buy
a Windows computer, you can pay a good deal less for it than the price of a
MAC and it may do a very good job.  However, it is possible to buy a Windows
computer that is not adequate to satisfactorily run a screen reader along
with other Windows software.  It will technically run, but you will
experience difficulties that probably will never come up when using a MAC.
It is up to you to be sure you are buying enough of a computer under
Windows.

My point here is that I am Happy with Windows, and I am glad that people are
happy with a MAC.  If you are a student, your best bet is probably to use
whichever machine is favored in the school you are attending.  If you are
looking for a job, it is still more common to find that Windows is used in
the workplace so knowing Windows might be helpful.  However, you certainly
may find specific employers who are using MAC computers, so I not saying
that can never happen.  Also, the kind of computer you will likely encounter
on the job could depend on the type of employment you are seeking.  The
bottom line is that there is no perfect solution.  What works best for each
of us depends on our particular requirements.  One really has to understand
the differences to make a smart choice.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindTlk <blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Devin Prater via
BlindTlk
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2019 5:01 AM
To: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at panix.com>
Cc: Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater at gmail.com>; Devin Prater via BlindTlk
<blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [BlindTlk] Computers for the blind

Oh, well that does work a little with the arrow keys and some Emacs
commands, but I'd much rather have Emacspeak, which is much more precise at
speaking Emacs information.

Devin Prater
Assistive Technology Instructor

________________________________
From: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at panix.com>
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2019 4:42 AM
To: Devin Prater
Cc: Devin Prater via BlindTlk
Subject: Re: [BlindTlk] Computers for the blind

emacs through nvda and I ran emacs from a command line prompt in
windows.

On Fri, 19 Apr 2019, Devin Prater wrote:

> Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 04:59:55
> From: Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater at gmail.com>
> To: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at panix.com>
> Cc: Devin Prater via BlindTlk <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [BlindTlk] Computers for the blind
>
> You use Emacs with NVDA, or you use Emacspeak through NVDA somehow?
>
> Also, I'm very sure that general Emacs help folks don't know about
Emacspeak.
>
> Devin Prater
> Assistive Technology Instructor
>
> ________________________________
> From: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at panix.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2019 12:42 AM
> To: Devin Prater
> Cc: Devin Prater via BlindTlk
> Subject: Re: [BlindTlk] Computers for the blind
>
> No it doesn't take long to do and I had it working with nvda since I
> never had jaws for a home computer. Not only that, there's help
> available from help-gnu-emacs at gnu.org to get it installed and configured
> properly.
>
> On Thu, 18 Apr 2019, Devin Prater wrote:
>
> > Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 00:28:20
> > From: Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater at gmail.com>
> > To: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at panix.com>
> > Cc: Devin Prater via BlindTlk <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [BlindTlk] Computers for the blind
> >
> > Yes, maybe one day I?ll buckle down and try to do that, it sounds like
it?d take a very long time to do, compared to the short time it takes on
Mac. Also, the speech server doesn?t support voice-lock-mode. This isn?t to
say that I expect it to support it completely, I know the Microsoft OneCore
voices probably aren?t as flexible as Voxin, or even MacinTalk, although a
speech server could be made to interface with Eloquence from CodeFactory or
other sources and just use the Outloud specifications for how it should be
used.
> >
> > > On Apr 18, 2019, at 10:39 PM, Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at panix.com>
wrote:
> > >
> > > You can install emacs on windows, I did it and got it to work and
emacs
> > > talks.
> > >
> > > On Thu, 18 Apr 2019, Devin Prater via BlindTlk wrote:
> > >
> > >> Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 14:08:54
> > >> From: Devin Prater via BlindTlk <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
<mailto:blindtlk at nfbnet.org>>
> > >> To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
<mailto:blindtlk at nfbnet.org>>
> > >> Cc: Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater at gmail.com
<mailto:r.d.t.prater at gmail.com>>
> > >> Subject: Re: [BlindTlk] Computers for the blind
> > >>
> > >> For me, a Mac is a little easier to use, and, to me, a little better
for what I did as a Technical Assistant intern at an Assistive Technology
department, adding and editing curricula.
> > >> Most of the curricula is in HTML format, which I worked with for a
time, until I figured out how to use Markdown along with HTML. I did this
using Emacs, a very good text editor, with built in listing, like spell
check for programming languages, which helped me a lot in making my work as
good as possible. Maybe I could use Windows for this, if VS Code supports
Markdown, or ORG-mode files (Org is another type of text formatting system),
but the other thing I used it for, email, will probably never been all that
great on Windows, especially threaded email usage. So, I brought my Mac
every day, and they were okay with that.
> > >>
> > >> Also, the Mac has screen curtain, which now is available as an add-on
for NVDA, and a feature in the latest version of JAWS. This is good for
viewing confidential information in that kind of setting, where students
aren?t aloud back in the staff area, but things happen.
> > >>
> > >> I?m sure that given plenty of work with resources, Windows could be
made to do well with what I need it for in work, and setting up Emacs, and
Emacspeak, does take a good 30 minutes to start from the beginning,
installing the Home-brew package manager, installing latest Emacs (brew cask
install emacs), getting and building Emacspeak, and linking the two
together, but after that, it works amazingly well for editing files. I?m
also sure that, if needed, I could convert the HTML files into Word files,
then back into HTML, but I?d much rather work with the source material, and
make it as clean and uncluttered as possible. You have no idea how messy
those HTML files were, with several ?&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp ? (non-breaking
space) there were from automated tools like conversion software.
> > >>
> > >> All this to say, it depends on what you?re doing. Also, if you write
a lot, the Mac is great for this, because of its system-wide spell checking.
Not just in Word and Edge, its Dictionary, which is also system-wide and
contains a thesaurus, and other text utilities, and VoiceOver works great
with all of them. No ?Candidate UI pane? when completing words, just a
?popup? noise and VoiceOver saying the word, followed by ?suggested
correction? followed by the spelling of the word, which is a very clean and
clear experience.
> > >>
> > >>> On Apr 18, 2019, at 12:29 PM, Judy Jones via BlindTlk
<blindtlk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> In addition, I believe you could get in trouble with an employer for
> > >>> bringing your computer into the workplace, depending on the level of
> > >>> confidentiality they need to maintain.
> > >>>
> > >>> Judy
> > >>> "Embrace the day with its mercies and blessings."
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: BlindTlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
<mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org><mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org
<mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org>>] On Behalf Of Jude
> > >>> DaShiell via BlindTlk
> > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2019 10:22 AM
> > >>> To: Ericka via BlindTlk
> > >>> Cc: Jude DaShiell
> > >>> Subject: Re: [BlindTlk] Computers for the blind
> > >>>
> > >>> It is never a good idea to take a home computer into the workplace!
> > >>> Even more so if you work for part of the national infrastructure or
> > >>> government. Reason for that is simple. Computers in those workplaces
> > >>> get hacked regularly. If you have a separate workplace computer and
a
> > >>> home computer and your workplace computer gets hacked, it's
technical
> > >>> support (help desk) responsibility to fix it. If you only use your
home
> > >>> computer at home and in work, you could be responsible for any data
loss
> > >>> and any necessary repairs. If an employer hasn't got enough money to
> > >>> set you up with a workplace computer and any other office equipment
> > >>> necessary for you to do your work, that employer is too
> > >>> under-capitalized to hire you.
> > >>>
> > >>> On Thu, 18 Apr 2019, Ericka via BlindTlk wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 12:48:30
> > >>>> From: Ericka via BlindTlk <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
<mailto:blindtlk at nfbnet.org>>
> > >>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org
<mailto:blindtlk at nfbnet.org>>
> > >>>> Cc: Ericka <dotwriter1 at gmail.com <mailto:dotwriter1 at gmail.com>>
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [BlindTlk] Computers for the blind
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Georgia, I am in Wisconsin. I agree with Mr. Mac out there. If I?m
doing
> > >>> it for home use only I would love to have a Mac. But a PC is more
practical
> > >>> since it can go into the workforce.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Ericka Nelson
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On Apr 16, 2019, at 5:53 PM, Georgia Cabus via BlindTlk
> > >>> <blindtlk at nfbnet.org <mailto:blindtlk at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Hi,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Seen your email at the blindtlk. I checked them out before but I
got mt
> > >>>>> laptop from Kevin from one of the listserv. He's from a non-profit
org
> > >>> too
> > >>>>> and very helpful on what I needed. I didn't have a lot budget for
a
> > >>> laptop
> > >>>>> but he found me a 12" lenovo that worked (I needed a lightweight
with a
> > >>>>> good specs) and I got it for $135 plus shipping.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> If you can't find any laptop from CFTB I can give his email.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Or if you are at certain states, there's local organizations that
help
> > >>> on
> > >>>>> computers. Where are you from? I might know something.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Georgia
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> BlindTlk mailing list
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> > >>>
> > >>> --
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> > >>>
> > >>>
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