[BlindTlk] [BlTlk] Fw: The Meaning of Independence?

Mon Aug 30 20:56:10 UTC 2021

God bless the writer of this message. The idea a sighted person can do it
faster for us is the kind of thing that kills marriages, friendships, and
makes us look like we don't really mean what we say. Learning
interdependence is a good thing, but one need to know at the end of the day
that he or she has given as much as she/he has taken. Be careful when you
hear yourself saying, "I'll let you do that." Let? Not honest.

. 

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindTlk <blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via
BlindTlk
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2021 8:06 PM
To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at outlook.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindTlk] [BlTlk] Fw: The Meaning of Independence?

Discussions like this can be very useful, but they can become less useful
when we play games with definitions to remain in our comfort zones.  Nobody
benefits from that.  

Nobody in or out of the Federation has ever said that independence means
never depending upon anybody.  As has been stated already, we all depend in
some ways on other people whether or not we are blind.  We all ask for help
whether we are sighted or blind.  As blind people we may need help on
different things than we would if we were sighted and we may even need help
on more things.  Do we deny we achieved our independence from Great Britain
through our Revolutionary War because we depended upon them after that for
income when we sold them cotton and other raw materials?  We have been
independent of Great Britain since the 1780's, but for most of that period
we have been interdependent in terms of trade and even military support in
more recent years.  

It could be that "independence" isn't exactly the correct word.  It could
also be that it will be different for each of us.  What is important is
whether we are doing the most that we can for ourselves with the tools and
abilities that each of us has been given.  Sometimes they require some
effort on our part to become useful.  If we expect somebody else to do
something for us that we could learn to do for ourselves, we are not just
being dependent on them but we are taking advantage of them.  I've heard
people say things like "Why should I take fifteen minutes to do something
that my sighted friend can do in five minutes," without considering the half
hour their sighted friend takes to get there.  Most of us are more
thoughtful than that, I know that, but there are other versions of the same
thing that all of us have probably allowed to happen from time to time.

Independence, as it is used in this discussion, is really all of us working
to do the best we can to not depend upon others to do for us what we can
learn to do ourselves, even if it takes us some effort to learn how.  As we
saw earlier with the discussion of housecleaning, we can often help one
another  in this quest.

Sometimes I fear we over-simplify the road to independence by thinking going
to a particular training center will make it happen all by itself.  I think
our training centers do well at emphasizing why learning those skills is
beneficial.  They also can show us what is possible.  In the end, though,
the drive to learn skills and be all that we can be with the tools and
abilities we are given has to come from within each of us.  However, we can
help one another to nurture this feeling so that it grows, or we can work to
keep us all in a place somebody else has defined for us by discouraging one
another.  It is as simple as that.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson
that 

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindTlk <blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jude DaShiell via
BlindTlk
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2021 10:48 PM
To: Judy Jones via BlindTlk <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at panix.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindTlk] [BlTlk] Fw: The Meaning of Independence?

In that situation pure self-sufficiency will have to be  a prerequisite.
Real independence isn't taught by any of these blindness organizations.
Were that the case every graduate would have had to passed survival
training as in what the Outward Bound program does.  Such an addition were
it to happen would equip blind people to live as homeless people if such
an unfortunate circumstance become theirs.
Now I think of it, given the recent supreme court ruling on evictions and
the fact that blind community demographics are in the shape they are, it's
maybe unfortunate these independence programs didn't offer their graduates
such training.

On Sat, 28 Aug 2021, Judy Jones via BlindTlk wrote:

> Hahaha, that is the pure defintion of independence, as long as total
self-sufficiency goes with it.
>
> Judy
>
>
>
>
> Judy
> sent from the Android BS6
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jude DaShiell via BlindTlk <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Saturday, August 28, 2021 07:43 PM
> To: Colleen McFadden via BlindTlk <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> CC: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at panix.com>
> Subject: Re: [BlindTlk] Fw: The Meaning of Independence?
>
> If they ever do get independence fully working, they'll be able to put
> each independent blind person on their own planet as researchers and
> they'll get along just fine.
>
> On Sat, 28 Aug 2021, Colleen McFadden via BlindTlk wrote:
> > I believe that we are all dependent on one another and it doesn't matter
if
> > we have a disability or not;  we all have our weaknesses.
> >
> > Colleen
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: BlindTlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cory
> > McMahon via BlindTlk
> > Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2021 5:07 PM
> > To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
> > Cc: Cory McMahon
> > Subject: Re: [BlindTlk] Fw: The Meaning of Independence?
> >
> > Jen,
> >
> > By your definition, disabled people will never be "independent" as some
of
> > us will forever be dependent upon mobility devices, transportation from
> > others, etc.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Cory McMahon
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: BlindTlk <blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jen via
BlindTlk
> > Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2021 11:39 AM
> > To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
> > Cc: Jen <spiderweb1 at sbcglobal.net>
> > Subject: [BlindTlk] Fw: The Meaning of Independence?
> >
> > So I've read "The Nature of Independence," which I think is a great
speech.
> > But what does independence really mean? I think independence means doing
> > everything for yourself and never asking for or needing help again. Also
-
> > independence is something you work on for a while, and then you have it,
and
> > you're all set.
> >
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