[BlindTlk] [BlTlk] Fw: The Meaning of Independence?

Mon Aug 30 21:49:35 UTC 2021

Well said!

Ericka Nelson

> On Aug 30, 2021, at 3:57 PM, Gary Wunder via BlindTlk <blindtlk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> God bless the writer of this message. The idea a sighted person can do it
> faster for us is the kind of thing that kills marriages, friendships, and
> makes us look like we don't really mean what we say. Learning
> interdependence is a good thing, but one need to know at the end of the day
> that he or she has given as much as she/he has taken. Be careful when you
> hear yourself saying, "I'll let you do that." Let? Not honest.
> 
> . 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindTlk <blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson via
> BlindTlk
> Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2021 8:06 PM
> To: Blind Talk Mailing List <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at outlook.com>
> Subject: Re: [BlindTlk] [BlTlk] Fw: The Meaning of Independence?
> 
> Discussions like this can be very useful, but they can become less useful
> when we play games with definitions to remain in our comfort zones.  Nobody
> benefits from that.  
> 
> Nobody in or out of the Federation has ever said that independence means
> never depending upon anybody.  As has been stated already, we all depend in
> some ways on other people whether or not we are blind.  We all ask for help
> whether we are sighted or blind.  As blind people we may need help on
> different things than we would if we were sighted and we may even need help
> on more things.  Do we deny we achieved our independence from Great Britain
> through our Revolutionary War because we depended upon them after that for
> income when we sold them cotton and other raw materials?  We have been
> independent of Great Britain since the 1780's, but for most of that period
> we have been interdependent in terms of trade and even military support in
> more recent years.  
> 
> It could be that "independence" isn't exactly the correct word.  It could
> also be that it will be different for each of us.  What is important is
> whether we are doing the most that we can for ourselves with the tools and
> abilities that each of us has been given.  Sometimes they require some
> effort on our part to become useful.  If we expect somebody else to do
> something for us that we could learn to do for ourselves, we are not just
> being dependent on them but we are taking advantage of them.  I've heard
> people say things like "Why should I take fifteen minutes to do something
> that my sighted friend can do in five minutes," without considering the half
> hour their sighted friend takes to get there.  Most of us are more
> thoughtful than that, I know that, but there are other versions of the same
> thing that all of us have probably allowed to happen from time to time.
> 
> Independence, as it is used in this discussion, is really all of us working
> to do the best we can to not depend upon others to do for us what we can
> learn to do ourselves, even if it takes us some effort to learn how.  As we
> saw earlier with the discussion of housecleaning, we can often help one
> another  in this quest.
> 
> Sometimes I fear we over-simplify the road to independence by thinking going
> to a particular training center will make it happen all by itself.  I think
> our training centers do well at emphasizing why learning those skills is
> beneficial.  They also can show us what is possible.  In the end, though,
> the drive to learn skills and be all that we can be with the tools and
> abilities we are given has to come from within each of us.  However, we can
> help one another to nurture this feeling so that it grows, or we can work to
> keep us all in a place somebody else has defined for us by discouraging one
> another.  It is as simple as that.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Steve Jacobson
> that 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindTlk <blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jude DaShiell via
> BlindTlk
> Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2021 10:48 PM
> To: Judy Jones via BlindTlk <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at panix.com>
> Subject: Re: [BlindTlk] [BlTlk] Fw: The Meaning of Independence?
> 
> In that situation pure self-sufficiency will have to be  a prerequisite.
> Real independence isn't taught by any of these blindness organizations.
> Were that the case every graduate would have had to passed survival
> training as in what the Outward Bound program does.  Such an addition were
> it to happen would equip blind people to live as homeless people if such
> an unfortunate circumstance become theirs.
> Now I think of it, given the recent supreme court ruling on evictions and
> the fact that blind community demographics are in the shape they are, it's
> maybe unfortunate these independence programs didn't offer their graduates
> such training.
> 
> 
>> On Sat, 28 Aug 2021, Judy Jones via BlindTlk wrote:
>> 
>> Hahaha, that is the pure defintion of independence, as long as total
> self-sufficiency goes with it.
>> 
>> Judy
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Judy
>> sent from the Android BS6
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Jude DaShiell via BlindTlk <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>> Date: Saturday, August 28, 2021 07:43 PM
>> To: Colleen McFadden via BlindTlk <blindtlk at nfbnet.org>
>> CC: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at panix.com>
>> Subject: Re: [BlindTlk] Fw: The Meaning of Independence?
>> 
>> If they ever do get independence fully working, they'll be able to put
>> each independent blind person on their own planet as researchers and
>> they'll get along just fine.
>> 
>>> On Sat, 28 Aug 2021, Colleen McFadden via BlindTlk wrote:
>>> I believe that we are all dependent on one another and it doesn't matter
> if
>>> we have a disability or not;  we all have our weaknesses.
>>> 
>>> Colleen
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: BlindTlk [mailto:blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cory
>>> McMahon via BlindTlk
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2021 5:07 PM
>>> To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'
>>> Cc: Cory McMahon
>>> Subject: Re: [BlindTlk] Fw: The Meaning of Independence?
>>> 
>>> Jen,
>>> 
>>> By your definition, disabled people will never be "independent" as some
> of
>>> us will forever be dependent upon mobility devices, transportation from
>>> others, etc.
>>> 
>>> Sincerely,
>>> 
>>> Cory McMahon
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: BlindTlk <blindtlk-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Jen via
> BlindTlk
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2021 11:39 AM
>>> To: blindtlk at nfbnet.org
>>> Cc: Jen <spiderweb1 at sbcglobal.net>
>>> Subject: [BlindTlk] Fw: The Meaning of Independence?
>>> 
>>> So I've read "The Nature of Independence," which I think is a great
> speech.
>>> But what does independence really mean? I think independence means doing
>>> everything for yourself and never asking for or needing help again. Also
> -
>>> independence is something you work on for a while, and then you have it,
> and
>>> you're all set.
>>> 
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