[blparent] Body Language was RE: Sighted Interference

Fri Jul 8 05:35:53 UTC 2016

Well, and then there's facial expression.I know many of my expressions are 
natural.My daughter says I can get an "evil eye" look that lets her know she 
better stop pushing me when enough is enough.  I've asked her to describe 
it, and she tells me my eyebrows go up and get close together, and my lips 
draw down into a frown, and my eyes sort of flash.  I don't have control of 
the eye muscles, but the eyes themselves get this "knock it off" flash for a 
second, she says.  She tells me that sometimes I just smile with my mouth, 
but when I smile and really mean it, my eyes smile, too.

But then sometimes, my facial expressions aren't right for what is going 
on.My daughter says now and then if I'm tired my face will be blank, with no 
expression at all, or sometimes the look will be kind of painted on, like 
I'm trying really hard to look the way I'm supposed to.  She's pretty 
descriptive for an eight-year-old, probably because she's been telling me 
about things all of her life.  By her own choice, pretty much.  I've never 
insisted on it.  I read to her a lot, as well.  Anyway, inappropriate facial 
expressions was one of the reasons my brother, and even my sister, listed 
for wanting to take my child away before she was born.  But my daughter's 
facial expressions are quite normal.  After all, she's sighted, and she's 
been around plenty of sighted people from the get-go.  I'm the only one in 
her life who is blind, for the most part.  There have been a few blind 
friends, but I'm the only consistent blind one, and it hasn't affected her 
facial expressions.

Jo Elizabeth

"The Bright Side of Darkness"
is my award-winning novel,
available in Kindle, audio, and paperback formats at Amazon.com.
-----Original Message----- 
From: Wendy Meuse via BlParent
Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2016 11:09 PM
To: Blind Parents Mailing List
Cc: Wendy Meuse
Subject: Re: [blparent] Body Language was RE: Sighted Interference

That is hard.  I have been told this by sighted people, but I have to 
explain that I can turn my face in their direction, but I have
no control of the muscles in my eyes so I can't look at them much as I would 
like too.  My mom always tried to get me to look at
people because when I was really little, like two or three I would turn my 
face so that my ear was towards them.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jody Ianuzzi via BlParent" <blparent at nfbnet.org>
To: "Blind Parents Mailing List" <blparent at nfbnet.org>
Cc: "Jody Ianuzzi" <thunderwalker321 at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2016 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: [blparent] Body Language was RE: Sighted Interference

Hi Michelle,

Yes and it was interesting the way Ken is Jernigan describe the story. I 
wonder how many of these we can add to the list to educate
each other.

When I was growing up my mother was always insisting how important it was to 
get I contact with people and to look at them when I
was talking with them. So I would turn my face in the direction of the 
person and concentrate on looking in their direction.
Recently my daughter has told me that I freak people out because people feel 
I am staring at them. So I said OK if I'm supposed to
get I contact what's the problem? She said that sighted people will glance 
at each other occasionally and look away and look at
other things but not stare at each other. Live and learn.

Also when I had some usable vision I would look at people to try to see 
them. My daughter also said this was staring. I said I
wasn't staring I was glancing it just takes me longer.

JODY p:
thunderwalker321 at gmail.com

"There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes." 
DOCTOR WHO (Tom Baker)

> On Jul 7, 2016, at 2:18 PM, Michelle Creedy via BlParent 
> <blparent at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> Jody, I didn't realize that you only lift your hand shoulder-height 
> either. Good thing I now know this. Fascenating subject!
>
> Michelle
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlParent [mailto:blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jody 
> Ianuzzi via BlParent
> Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2016 3:29 PM
> To: Blind Parents Mailing List
> Cc: Jody Ianuzzi
> Subject: Re: [blparent] Sighted Interference
>
> I think body language is an interesting subject. I think I borrowed a book 
> on barred on the subject. Maybe we should list out some
> specifics.
>
> I remember Kennis Jernigan made a comment about how he was in court and 
> when I asked him to raise his hand to swear that he was
> telling the truth he put it up above his head as you would in school. He 
> didn't realize that you were supposed to put your hand at
> shoulder height. That got me thinking about all the other things that we 
> missed.
>
> JODY p:
> thunderwalker321 at gmail.com
>
> "There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes." 
> DOCTOR WHO (Tom Baker)
>
>
>
>> On Jul 5, 2016, at 11:07 AM, Michael Bullis via BlParent 
>> <blparent at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Much of what sighted people do is learned behaviour.  People observe
>> one another and imitate.  Walking, talking, holding a fork, waving,
>> hair styles, dancing, all of it is imitated behaviour.  There isn't 
>> technically a "right"
>> way to hold a fork.  There is simply the way that most people do it.
>> I myself didn't learn to hold a fork the "socially acceptable" way
>> until I was eight or nine.  I didn't even know I was doing it
>> differently and I too found the new way seemed awkward.  But, I do
>> admit that, after some practice it did seem to give me more control over 
>> the fork.
>> I do think there is some value in teaching kids the generally socially
>> acceptable way to do things unless they are the kind of kid who just
>> wants to be a rebel.  Not doing things the socially acceptable way can
>> be difficult for kids who don't like to be singled out.
>> I grew up blind.  When I was eighteen or so, a friend said to me that
>> I looked awkward in the ways I stood and sat.  I was fascinated by his
>> observations so we set up an evening in which he showed me how sighted
>> people do such things.  In some cases they were things I would have
>> never considered.  I found the session very helpful.
>> Needless to say, he was polite in bringing up the subject and didn't
>> embarrass me in front of a large group as this annoying person did to
>> your daughter.
>> I became fascinated by all of these learned behaviours.
>> Interestingly, many things we think of as "natural" are simply
>> learned.  Take walking for instance.  The very few instances we have
>> of babies being raised by four legged animals such as wolves, bears or
>> dogs have shown that these children never learn to walk.  In other
>> words, when you see that one year old trying to stand and then walk,
>> it's imitation, probably combined with some instinct, but instinct alone 
>> wouldn't get the job done.
>>
>> We all know that too much imitation is unhealthy.  That's why we give
>> our kids advice about not following the crowd.  But, there are social
>> norms we all can benefit from.
>> I'm just sorry you had such a rude person bring it to your daughter's
>> attention.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlParent [mailto:blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> Michelle Creedy via BlParent
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 5, 2016 10:21 AM
>> To: 'Blind Parents Mailing List' <blparent at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Michelle Creedy <michelle.creedy at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [blparent] Sighted Interference
>>
>> Hi Jo Elizabeth
>>
>> I'm so glad you chatted with your daughter. It sounds like you handled
>> things just right.
>>
>> Michelle
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlParent [mailto:blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jo
>> Elizabeth Pinto via BlParent
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2016 12:06 AM
>> To: Blind Parents Mailing List
>> Cc: Jo Elizabeth Pinto
>> Subject: Re: [blparent] Sighted Interference
>>
>> Hi, Michelle.  I did speak to my daughter after the fact.  I told her
>> that while by adulthood, most grown-ups no longer grasp spoons in
>> their fists, it really didn't matter if she still held her spoon that
>> way for now.  I said that she would have an easier time writing in
>> school if she learned to hold her pencil properly, and once she
>> mastered that, her spoon would follow naturally.  Be that as it may,
>> it was inappropriate for my writer friends to bother her about how she
>> ate her ice cream.  I apologized for not speaking up sooner and more
>> firmly.  She admitted that she had been embarrassed and sad, and I
>> said those feelings were very understandable.  What I was at a loss to
>> come up with, at least out loud with my daughter, was a resolution of
>> how to move forward from there, both with regards to the current incident 
>> and future ones.
>>
>> Jo Elizabeth
>>
>> "The Bright Side of Darkness"
>> is my award-winning novel,
>> available in Kindle, audio, and paperback formats at Amazon.com.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michelle Creedy via BlParent
>> Sent: Monday, July 04, 2016 11:13 PM
>> To: 'Blind Parents Mailing List'
>> Cc: Michelle Creedy
>> Subject: Re: [blparent] Sighted Interference
>>
>> Hello Jo Elizabeth
>>
>> Wow, I'm so sorry that this happened to you. It truly is amazing how
>> sighted people feel it is their God-given right to tell us things they
>> think we should hear. I have some folks in my life who often make
>> comments about my clothes but when I go to my sister and ask her, my
>> sister and best friend who I trust tell me they are just fine.
>>
>> I'm wondering, have you had a chat with your daughter about this? It
>> may be a good opportunity to explain to her about how others sometimes
>> feel that they can interfear. Honestly, I know a lot of children with
>> sighted parents who hold their spoon like your daughter does and no
>> one says anything. I encourage you to also have a conversation with
>> the writers without your daughter present and tell them how you felt
>> when the feedback involved your daughter. Let them know that you have
>> trusted friends and family to give you feedback and that they have all
>> been asked to give it in a particular manner I.E. without your
>> daughter present. I have had to draw a really hard line with the
>> person of which I wrote in the last paragraph. I've literally had to
>> make feedback rules for her and there are certain areas of my life
>> where she simply may not offer feedback. This is because the feedback
>> was given in front of my blind students who didn't understand it and then 
>> started talking among themselves and to their siblings
>> about it. I had to get pretty firm.
>> It is tough but it does help. I did wait until I'd cooled down a
>> little and I ran through what I needed to say with a close friend
>> because honestly, it really hurt to be treated like this which
>> unfortunately you and your daughter found out yet again last week.
>> People seem to think that because we're blind, they get to say
>> whatever they like because they can see. Oh, the almighty vision!
>>
>> I'm thinking of you. Please let us know how it goes. I'm thinking of
>> both of you. What a degrading experience!
>>
>> Michelle
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: BlParent [mailto:blparent-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jo
>> Elizabeth Pinto via BlParent
>> Sent: Monday, July 04, 2016 2:47 PM
>> To: Blind Parents Mailing List
>> Cc: Jo Elizabeth Pinto
>> Subject: [blparent] Sighted Interference
>>
>> Hi, all.  I regularly dealt with the issue of well-meaning sighted
>> people interfering with my parenting when my daughter was a baby, but
>> I thought the problem had pretty much resolved itself once she got too
>> big to be irresistibly cute and learned to walk and talk.  Maybe I
>> just have particularly busybody friends--I'm in a writing group where
>> most of the members are quite a bit older than I am,  some with
>> grandchildren my daughter's age--but sighted interference is an
>> ongoing problem we all have to be on the lookout for .  It jumped up and 
>> bit me on the nose last week.
>> This time it embarrassed my daughter, which infuriated me, whereas
>> before she was too little to really know or care.  That makes the
>> issue a thousand times more thorny now, which is why I decided to
>> bring it up on the list, because the earlier disabled parents find a
>> strategy for dealing with it, I think, the better off they and their 
>> children will be.
>>
>> My daughter and I were out to lunch at Dairy Queen with some of the
>> members of my writing group.  One of the authors, in my opinion, is
>> quite obsessive about everything, including my blindness.  She once
>> told me in front of everyone that there's a right way to eat a
>> cupcake, and I wasn't eating mine correctly because you're supposed to
>> eat it from the side and I was eating mine from the top.  Of course,
>> she said, I wouldn't know that because I can't see.  I was slightly
>> peeved with the self-appointed Miss Manners, but I laughed it off and
>> said I always was a rebel.  There are a lot more examples of her
>> saying things like that.  That particular author had been invaluable
>> in helping me get my book published, so I didn't feel I could ruffle
>> her feathers too much.  Anyway, toward the end of the lunch, my
>> daughter was enjoying her cherry sundae, and the same author told her
>> she was holding her spoon the wrong way.  She said my daughter still
>> held her spoon in her fist, like a boy, instead of in three fingers,
>> like a proper little girl.  My daughter got embarrassed, and I was 
>> appalled.  First of all, my daughter is eight.  So what if she
>> holds her spoon in her fist?
>> Lots of kids do.  Maybe she's a little old for that, but to go on and
>> on about how boys shovel their ice cream in and girls eat nicely, and
>> if she didn't learn the right way to hold a spoon, the kids at school
>> would make fun of her, and her mom couldn't see to show her the right
>> way.  Then two other grandparent-aged writers at the table joined in
>> to try and "help."  My daughter tried to hold her spoon their way, but
>> it felt funny to her, so she said she couldn't do it.  At that point,
>> I intervened--I had been quite shocked and appalled before that, and
>> to my shame, it took me a few moments to find my voice--I put up a
>> menu around my daughter's place at the table and said it didn't matter
>> how she held her spoon and she was going to eat her sundae in peace
>> without everybody watching her.  She was too overwhelmed, though, and 
>> said she was full and didn't want her ice cream.
>> Her cherry sundae, which is her favorite thing in the world, was spoiled.
>> She wouldn't eat it; she gave it to me.  I didn't say anything else,
>> but looking back, I wish I would have.  I wish I would have asked them
>> how dare they ruin my daughter's dessert.  I wish I would have told
>> the instigator that if she was really concerned with the way my child
>> held her spoon, she could have spoken to me privately about it instead
>> of making it a public issue for the whole table.  I wish I would have
>> told them all that their help did more harm than good.
>>
>> I will have to decide if I should say anything to them when we meet
>> again this week.  I don't know if I can make them see that they made a
>> mistake, especially the obsessive one.  My other choice is just to be
>> very vigilant and protect my daughter from their boorishness.
>>
>> Jo Elizabeth
>>
>> "The Bright Side of Darkness"
>> is my award-winning novel,
>> available in Kindle, audio, and paperback formats at Amazon.com.
>>
>>
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