[Ct-nfb] Can you stop using this forum for your personal opinion sand negativity

Sat Nov 10 23:52:15 UTC 2012

Hey. I for one am glad Deb brought up the question about the ACB. While I
myself encountered the NFB before I was aware of the ACB, many many folks in
the NFB encouraged me and others to check out what the ACB is about. Like I
said in my previous message, there are items that the two organizations
agree upon, and many of us long-time federationists have good friends in the
ACB. Many of us collaborated with ACB members or even participated in ACB
dominated institutions. On the other hand, when you examine the bulk of
political stances and philosophical positions taken by the two
organizations, the contrast can be stunning.

Of course many members in either organization have not yet gotten deeply
entrenched enough with the respective politics or blindness philosophies so
as to take such dichotomy very seriously. Many of us are on the fence; but
as institutions, the NFB and ACB sometimes make Dems and Reps look like
old-time buddies. As a list serve that is supposed to represent what the NFB
stands for and the work we do, I don't feel we should shrug away from
controversies that arise from  the differences we have with other
organizations. It's all part of the struggle.

As I've been a part of the NFB for over ten years now, I'm obviously partial
to the federation's philosophy, and I may have a skewed prospective on which
organization is needlessly bashing the other. The research I've done on the
ACB seems to reveal an organization that devotes a lot of literature and
decision-making time towards antagonizing the NFB (this sound clip we heard
is a small example). Justin and Nathanael can likely attest to this first
hand. Of course I've met long time members on both sides that bemoan the
fact the two organizations basically agreed to constantly disagree. In
addition, I know folks on the NFB side that sometimes get really out of hand
with trashing the ACB; making general statements that attack the
personalities and lifestyles of all/most ACB members. None of that kind of
thing is productive, and indeed the two organizations would do best to
collaborate whenever this is philosophically permissible. We're all human
beings that face very similar struggles on a day to day basis, and thus we
can probably agree to more things than we actually do.

A fairly minor example of where the two organizations disagree occurred
during the ACB's legal suit to make paper money tactily accessible. While I
don't think the NFB totally opposed the idea of tactily accessible money, it
opposed the suit because it believed the ACB's approach, and the attention
it would all bring to blind people would not be helpful in making the blind
seem like responsible and capable workers and self-managers. Indeed the
lawsuit brought quite a bit of dubious attention to the blind community. We
had radio and TV interviews of totally un-trained or poorly trained blind
people that talked about how they couldn't manage money altogether, or the
only way they could tell their bills apart was through putting different
denominations in totally different parts of their outfit, like their socks.
It made me cringe. Not only have I been able to organize money in my own
wallet since childhood, I happen to know countless examples of blind people
that work directly with paper money as business owners, clerks and
treasurers. As Chris alluded to, the NFB really works to evoke a positive
visage of blindness rather than making the blind look needy and craving
special accommodations.

Another major philosophical difference the NFB and ACB have concerns
training. Like a number of you, I attended the Carol Center (Sorry, I'm not
looking up how to spell it just now) in Massachusetts. While most of the
staff at the Center were fully sighted, the blind staff/faculty I
encountered there were ACB members, and from what I gathered, the center
seemed to reflect an ACB philosophy. I went there in 2004 about a year after
graduating from the NFB sponsored Louisiana Center for the Blind. While the
brief computer training I received at the Carol center was quite effective
(I went there for a college prep course on JAWS and Windows), the conditions
students there faced seemed atrociously custodial. Students had curfews and
had to get permission to walk between buildings without sited escort-at
least at night. Attitudes towards cane use was lax at best. While there was
O&M instruction, I rarely encountered people using canes otherwise,
especially once training was done. All or most dining was done in a
cafeteria, where students were asked to put aside their canes, and be given
a sighted guide through where food was served and to a seat at a table. The
only place at the LCB where we regularly departed with our canes was in the
kitchen, where our hands were full of greasiness, we had gotten thoroughly
oriented with the landscape before work, and we weren't really walking
anywhere beyond a couple of steps. At the Carol center by contrast, I was
made fun of and ridiculed by  other students for my regular and insistent
cane use. They called me MosesJ. I think they should've called me Gandhi;
but I didn't take this treatment in a really gracious or Gandhi-like fashion
unfortunately. In addition, I saw so many students just sitting around
complaining about their blindness, reflecting on the good-old days when they
had sight, and anxiously anticipating some kind of cure. While such
attitudes are understandable, especially among those that recently lost
their sight; I was just shocked at the lack of positive input here. At the
LCB we had people like this; but they were always helped along by capable
and optimistic blind staff and students; and eventually the spells would be
broken. I did meet a couple of staff members at the Carol Center who
expressed concern over the center's lax cane-use standards; and the
president of the center did speak at the NFB of Massachusetts a couple of
years ago, suggesting that the place indeed upgraded their training. Maybe
things have changed. If not, I really wouldn't recommend the place as a
full-fledged adult rehabilitation option.

                Experiences like this truly helped me develop a sense of the
contrast different blindness-related philosophical constructs have. The
different views people have towards blindness do really have an impact, and
it affected me in a way I did not foresee.  

                Lastly, in the context of sub-minimum wages, I agree we are
dealing with an incredibly important issue that not only impacts the way
people perceive the blind, but also pertains to people's livelihoods and
ability to become active members of society. Sub-minimum wages are
discriminatory, and make permanent second class citizens of the blind; thus
effecting our own security. On the other hand, we really should consider
scale in our rhetoric. While people's ability to turn a blind eye as it
were, and do extreme bad as well as extreme good is astonishing; equating
the ignorance and discrimination surrounding our issue of sub-minimum wages
with genocide and brutal enslavement is a bit over the top to say the least.
While it may have value in an elaborate discussion geared exclusively
towards security, social awareness, and the genesis of great injustice ,  it
really doesn't do us much good in this context, and will only strike up
peoples emotional alarms. Think of it this way, we the blind purchase items
all the time that are products of war and brutal labor conditions. Maybe we
can think of ourselves as part of that puzzle, and not our condition as a
sign of an impending Hitler.

Always yours,

Trevor A.                                       

From: Ct-nfb [mailto:ct-nfb-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Deb Reed
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 6:56 AM
To: NFB of Connecticut Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Ct-nfb] Can you stop using this forum for your personal
opinionsand negativity

Hi Everyone,

I am not sorry that I posed my questions as that is the only way to learn
and that I surely have done. Thanks to all who provided this information on
two organizations I was not familiar with. I am still a new NFB member so I
am soaking it all in.

On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Edward <personal.edward at gmail.com> wrote:

Hello

While the negativity is not constructive, discussion of the ACB, or any
other organization that relates to blindness, should be aloud to continue on
the list.  I believe the list should be used to talk about any subject
relating to blindness, as long as it's appropriate for all ages to read, and
until such time   that the list's traffic becomes too convoluted.  It's not
like the list has been inundated with responses, or has been too difficult
to follow.

Just my opinion,
Edward

-----Original Message-----
From: Ct-nfb [mailto:ct-nfb-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sandee Kush
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 5:50 PM
To: 'NFB of Connecticut Mailing List'
Subject: [Ct-nfb] Can you stop using this forum for your personal
opinionsand negativity

Those of you having the ACB discussion relative to the  HR, would it be
possible for you to 1,  Develop a group email to converse back and forth?
2.  Once again, email the person directly that  you want to debate or
whatever 3.  Create a blog

I am sure I speak for many of those on the list serve.  Personally, I am
revising my opinion of people based on their comments, developing concern
about leadership skills and just plain bewildered that anyone thinks this is
a constructive dialogue.

Please do not respond to me on the List serve.
And please...stop the "public" debate.
Thank you.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ct-nfb [mailto:ct-nfb-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of ntwales
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 12:19 PM
To: ct-nfb at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [Ct-nfb] FW: ACB Resolution on H.R. 3086

Rich - Thank you for your excellent message.
Chris - I couldn't disagree with you more on several points.  First, though,
I should state that, like Justin, I too received a national scholarship from
ACB while an undergrad and attended their national convention.  I did meet
many pleasant, articulate, and successful members there--and most were
pleasant and welcoming to me even though they knew clearly that I was an NFB
member.  I spoke a couple of months later with President Maurer about this,
and he was glad I went, and he showed no animosoty towards the ACB during
our conversation.  Also before moving to Connecticut, as an NFB leader in
California I worked closely with ACB leaders on a handful of joint issues,
including establishing a separate rehabilitation agency for the blind and
increasing availability of public transit, and I found everyone pleasant to
work with and, on other matters such as the level of access to public rights
of way, pleasant to disagree with.  Now:
1. You wrote, "I've met people at national convention who are members of
both NFB and ACB--although Dr. Maurer [you gave him the title doctor; he
himself does not and I endeavor not to; his brother interestingly enough
holds a doctorate] would certainly excommunicate them if he found out."
While President Maurer would support excommunicating these dual members, it
isn't about him.  The NFB constitution forbids such dual membership.  This
is an organizational constitutional matter, and I think most members would
agree that, just like you can't be registered as a Republican and a
Democrat, you can't be a dual member--and, as we practiced at our state
convention, our NFB could vote to change that about our constitution if we
ever changed our minds.
2. You wrote, "ACB's decision not to support HR 3086 is hardly comparable to
Hitler gassing the Jews or the English exterminating Native Americans."
While Hitler gasing the Jews (he also gased the
disabled) and the English killing Native Americans on their face seem like
extreme examples, they are both predicated upon the same belief that some
human life is less valuable than other human life.  ACB deliberating to be
silent is more properly comparable to those in Nazi Germany who remained
silent while the Holocaust went on around them, while trains and marches of
prisoners passed their towns and woods and churches.  How Nazi Germany rose
to such power personally fascinates me, and maybe we've heard a small
insight into how.  Who will be left to stand up for the ACB...
3. You mention the statistic that few blind people are paid less than the
minimum wage under the infamous Section 14(c).  This is a tired argument,
and with Rich's public admission I now know of three NFB of CT leaders who
were devalued by this provision.  And it's not just Goodwill, of course,
like Semens and Phillips weren't the only users of concentration camp labor
in Nazi Germany, but they are the worst--they'd have you think they're a
charity!  The other two NFB of CT members were devalued at shops not
affiliated with Goodwill.  Knowing so many blind people who have been
devalued by this provision, in the context of this clip from the ACB
convention I, as a thoughtful Republican and regular viewer of Fox News (I
knew it was over when they called it for Obama!), will never think of the
99% and the 1% the same way again...
Best,
Nathanael

On 09.11.2012 11:03, Richard McGaffin wrote:
> --- On wrote:
>
>> From: Chris Kuell <ckuell at comcast.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Ct-nfb] FW: ACB Resolution on H.R. 3086
>> To: "NFB of Connecticut Mailing List" <ct-nfb at nfbnet.org>
>> Date: Friday, November 9, 2012, 8:33 AM
>>
>> I know many ACB members who are capable, competent blind people.
>> They believe in independence, Braille, and the right of all blind
>> people to become active members in the workplace and society. Marcia
>> dresser, who used to live in Connecticut and was the first VP of the
>> ACB here, worked with us to help pass a Braille bill back in 1999. I
>> was on several BESB committees with her, and I admire Marcia and her
>> husband Steve, also blind and an active ACB member, very much. I've
>> met people at national convention who are members of both NFB and
>> ACB--although Dr. Maurer would certainly excommunicate them if he
>> found out. Again, these are capable, competent, admirable blind
>> people, who are networking and not judging people by affiliation, but
>> rather by character.
>>
>> I see the ACB and NFB as completely analogous to republicans and
>> democrats. Both groups have a vision for our country, but they have
>> different ideas on how to get there. Neither side is evil, although I
>> have my doubts about the folks at Fox news, but for some reason,
>> people get fired up when they feel they have an enemy, which is how
>> far too many NFBers and ACBers react. I've studied both
>> organizations, and choose to be an NFB member because I think our
>> philosophy best matches my own personality. But I don't think the ACB
>> is wrong, just different. I would summarize this way: The NFB wants
>> training and opportunities for blind people, while the ACB wants
>> understanding and accommodations.
>>
>> I listened to the ACB audio clip, twice, and I find it fascinating
>> how different people react to the same stimuli. I didn't hear any
>> slamming of the NFB, I just heard a single sentence saying 'it's an
>> NFB bill'. The sentence wasn't said with love or enthusiasm, and in
>> fact probably held a little disdain, but I certainly wouldn't call it
>> slamming.
>>
>> ACB's decision not to support HR 3086 is hardly comparable to Hitler
>> gassing the Jews or the English exterminating Native Americans. It's
>> a decision based on facts, math, and mission. NIB doesn't pay blind
>> workers below minimum wage. Good will does, but by my
>> calculation,it's very few blind people. The large majority of the few
>> hundred disabled workers who receive below minimum wage are
>> multi-disabled, almost all with severe cognitive disabilities. And
>> the small percentage of blind people who are included in this class
>> are also multi-disabled, with blindness the least of their troubles.
>> Traditionally, the NFB has not fought on behalf of other
>> disabilities, and DR. Maurer himself told me personally that 'it
>> dilutes our message'. The NFB has decided to fight on behalf of
>> people with other disabilities in taking on HR 3086, while the ACB
>> has decided that they won't. It's not evil, it's simply a different
>> viewpoint.
>>
>> Deb, are you sorry you asked? Smile.
>>
>> chris
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ct-nfb mailing list
>>
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