[Dtb-talk] The Physical Cartridges themselves?

Mon Aug 1 18:46:57 UTC 2011

Responding to:
:NLS content, even though often read by a volunteer reader, is still an
audio book"

The vast majority, close to all if not all of audio books produced by NLS 
are read by paid readers some being actors between jobs. Our regional 
libraries my use volunteers. I know for a fact the Florida library has used 
volunteer readers from the local prison population to read some of their 
books.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Flint Million" <fmillion at gmail.com>
To: "Discussion of Digital Talking Books" <dtb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] The Physical Cartridges themselves?

> Agreed. The law may not specifically require the encryption, but the
> fact is the publishers DO cooperate in this issue. Encryption is used
> all over the place in consumer media. Nearly any digital content you
> purchase online (save for music) includes DRM, so the NLS is just
> along for the ride.
>
> I don't think publishers even care about the way the content "sounds".
> NLS content, even though often read by a volunteer reader, is still an
> audiobook. (Although some books nowadays seem to be being directly
> converted from the commercial audiobook sources) Content read even by
> a crappy speech synthesizer, in their eyes, is still an audiobook.
> Audiobooks have always cost a lot more to the public than print books.
> In their eyes, this means jeopardization of profits. This is one place
> I think these companies need to stop and look at. Not every
> *potential* lost dollar is an *actual* lost dollar...
>
>
> F
>
> On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 8:55 AM, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>> You may deem it "twaddle" but in the end, it's the opinion of publishers,
>> together with the influence that NFB and ACB can bring to bear that NLS 
>> must
>> deal with in order to produce digital talking books. And lest you think
>> there isn't much of a market for the books, consider the flap a few years
>> ago when web-braille was shutdown for a few weeks simply by virtue of the
>> fact that some books had been illegally distributed.
>>
>> I doubt that my words will convince you, however. In a sense, it's just 
>> one
>> more skirmish in the ongoing war between those who want *everything*
>> available on the Internet or via other digital means and those whose
>> livelihood depends upon royalties for material and who therefore favor 
>> DRM
>> schemes and the like.
>>
>> Mike Freeman
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: dtb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:dtb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Dale Leavens
>> Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 5:41 AM
>> To: Discussion of Digital Talking Books
>> Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] The Physical Cartridges themselves?
>>
>> And is there really a huge market in pirated NLS or BookShare content? 
>> Would
>>
>> it really cost any significant number of say audible book sales or CD 
>> sales?
>>
>> What a load of twaddle over a non-issue!
>>
>> Dale Leavens.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Flint Million" <fmillion at gmail.com>
>> To: "Discussion of Digital Talking Books" <dtb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 8:22 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] The Physical Cartridges themselves?
>>
>>
>> If you look at physical form-factor, there is indeed no problem
>> integrating an SD card reader into the form factor of an NLS
>> cartridge. I imagine perhaps a lift-up cover on top, wherein you lay
>> the SD card and clasp the cover closed. Some GSM phones use a similar
>> technique to secure the SIM card inside the phone. Although, as was
>> pointed out, the production costs may not be justifiable. I'd imagine
>> someone could probably custom-build one on their own using the PCB
>> from an SD card reader and just doing some modifications on a standard
>> cart...
>>
>> The compatible cables are available at Dollar Tree stores for $1. As
>> was pointed out, it is important to check whether the end that will
>> connect to the cartridge will fit. Nearly all extender cables with
>> plastic housing around that connector will not work - it needs to be
>> just the bare metal shielding. (Here's one area where "cheap is
>> better"!)
>>
>> The fact that Greg said that students were able to "hack" the write
>> protection confirms my belief that it is controlled by a custom USB
>> command. USB mass storage is directly based on SCSI, and it allows for
>> custom command sets to be embedded with the standard ones, so that
>> makes total sense. Too bad you guys didn't figure that out before
>> having to send all those carts back!....
>>
>> The main problems with using USB flash media in the NLS players stems
>> mainly from the fact that the NLS player uses the USB suspend
>> functions to minimize power usage. Not all USB storage devices support
>> this command properly. Some devices interpret it as a "shut down"
>> command and disappear from the USB link. Others freeze up on the
>> command because they don't know how to process it. Obviously the NLS
>> carts have been designed from day one to properly support this
>> feature. Through the options.xml file you can disable USB suspend on a
>> per-drive basis which often solves the problem. Using this method I've
>> successfully used SD card, CF card and even hard drives on the NLS
>> player. (obviously, hard drives need to be powered by some other
>> means, such as a wall plug, as they will overload the NLS's power
>> system!)
>>
>> The only problems I personally see with an NLS app for iPhone is the
>> potential for key leakage. The NLS encryption system depends
>> completely on the security of a very small number of private
>> encryption keys which must be stored in the device intended to play
>> the content. (This is why you have to "authorize" your Victor
>> Reader/BookSense/etc. You're installing those private keys, which have
>> been further encrypted - which is why you need to provide your serial
>> number.)
>>
>> This is why the NLS has generally been so adamant about keeping
>> playback limited to embedded, purpose-built devices - they're MUCH
>> harder to hack into and steal keys from. In a device like the NLS
>> player, the key can be stored and presumed relatively secure because
>> it's not accessible by the user. However, if you were to place the
>> same key onto a PC, where DVD, Blu-ray, and software licensing
>> encryption schemes are "cracked" very rapidly, I'm sure you can
>> imagine how quickly someone would be able to steal the key.
>>
>> An NLS app for iOS would present the same security flaw because
>> jailbroken iOS devices are no different than PCs - open and hackable.
>> Personally, I'd be afraid that if an iOS app came out, and the key was
>> subsequently stolen and used to decrypt content en masse, that the NLS
>> would end up having to not only pull the NLS app, but become even more
>> strict on our use of the content to begin with.
>>
>> The encryption is not the NLS being "mean", it's part of their
>> exemption under copyright law, which requires them to prevent access
>> to the content by non-blind and non-disabled people. The 4-track
>> format served the exact same purpose (along with offering
>> much-expanded tape capacity), and while it was pretty easy to figure
>> out for anyone with a bit of audio background, the common person
>> wouldn't have been able to use the cassettes, and even if they knew
>> how, it'd require a bit of work and some expensive audio equipment
>> (for the time).
>>
>> F
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 10:21 PM, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>> One observation about an NLS iPhone app: while I'd love such an app, it
>>> would eat the iPhone battery alive so one would need one of those USB
>>> charging packs or something similar to get anywhere near the life you 
>>> get
>>> with a VR Stream, BookSense, Book Port Plus or especially the NLS 
>>> player.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: dtb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:dtb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Greg Kearney
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 5:24 PM
>>> To: Discussion of Digital Talking Books
>>> Cc: Discussion of Digital Talking Books
>>> Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] The Physical Cartridges themselves?
>>>
>>> We wrote an iPhone app DaisyWorm which can read the DAISY/NISO 2002 
>>> format
>>> which the NLS uses. We contacted the NLS and offered to make that 
>>> software
>>> work with their books they never replied to us.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> Greg Kearney
>>> Association for the Blind of Western Australia
>>>
>>> On 31/07/2011, at 7:58 AM, Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> No, no iphone player for NLS books.
>>>>
>>>> Various rumors say that NLS might be working on something, but nobody
>>>> knows if it's true nor when such a thing might be released.
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 07:47:36PM -0400, Dornetta wrote:
>>>>> Hello all:
>>>>> I have been monitoring this convo for a while and would like to
>>> ask...does
>>>>> NLS has a app for the iPhone?
>>>>> I find that while enjoying books via the DTBM is a +, it becomes a
>>> nuisence
>>>>> when travel is thrown into the mix. :-( I am saying that this is an
>>>>> "bad"
>>>>> concept or thing but useing the VR Stream/DTBM vs. the iPhone allows 
>>>>> for
>>>>> more portibility. What a great concept if this was possible :-)
>>>>> Netta
>>>>> "Just because you are blind, does not mean you lack vision"-Stevie
>>>>> Wonder
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Evans" 
>>>>> <evans-lynn at comcast.net>
>>>>> To: "Discussion of Digital Talking Books" <dtb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 2:28 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] The Physical Cartridges themselves?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I would think NLS has a few more patrons then you do Down Under.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also you have a central location and NLS has regional libraries 
>>>>>> spread
>>>>>> throughout the 50 states.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not only are the cartridges right protected, according to my library
>>> here
>>>>>> in Florida each cartridge with a book has the firmware on it for the
>>>>>> NLS
>>>>>> player.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Kearney" 
>>>>>> <gkearney at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "Discussion of Digital Talking Books" <dtb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 12:05 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] The Physical Cartridges themselves?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well as I said we went a different rout here. We assigned the
>>>>>>> cartridge
>>>>>>> to the user and not the book. We then developed software that reads
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> unique serial number tied to each cartridge and then erases and lads
>>>>>>> that users next set of books.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This achieves several things:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. No book is ever "put of stock" as we do not store copies on a 
>>>>>>> self
>>>>>>> but rather on a server.
>>>>>>> 2. We need only about 2 cartridges per user this reducing the number
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> cartridge required.
>>>>>>> 3. We reduce the number of packages that go out in the mails by
>>>>>>> putting
>>>>>>> several books on a drive.
>>>>>>> 4. We no longer need a big room filled up with shelves for books.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As a result our drives are not write protected and as of yet that 
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> never been an issue for us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gregory Kearney | Manager Accessible Media
>>>>>>> Association for the Blind of WA - Guide Dogs WA
>>>>>>> PO Box 101, Victoria Park WA 6979 | 61 Kitchener Ave, Victoria Park 
>>>>>>> WA
>>>>>>> 6100
>>>>>>> Tel: 08 9311 8246 | Fax: 08 9361 8696 | www.guidedogswa.com.au
>>>>>>> Tel: 307-224-4022 (North America)
>>>>>>> Email: greg.kearney at guidedogswa.com.au
>>>>>>> Email: gkearney at gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 30/07/2011, at 11:50 AM, Lynn Evans wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please allow me to chime or clang in on this subject.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The cartridges are indeed flash drives in a different form that is 
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> a cartridge with a big finger hole on one end and the USB connector
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> the other end.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The cable used to connect a blank cartridge to the computer is a
>>>>>>>> standard USB extension cable. The cable will be able to connect one
>>>>>>>> end to the other end like a necklace. I have been told these cables
>>>>>>>> can be found in the Dollar Store for you guessed it a dollar.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> NLS did not choose to use flash drives or even smaller flash cards
>>>>>>>> because of the dexterity issues that some patrons would have with
>>>>>>>> working with small objects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The use of a flash card reader along with a flash card is 
>>>>>>>> problematic
>>>>>>>> at best. NLS has recommended during the BARD pilot phrase that 
>>>>>>>> flash
>>>>>>>> cards not be used with the NLS digital players. Some may have
>>>>>>>> reported
>>>>>>>> some success in their use. Others have reported slow access of data
>>>>>>>> transfer from card to player causing the player to loose its place 
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> the book.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is a waist of human resources and librarian's time for them to 
>>>>>>>> sit
>>>>>>>> at a computer all day erasing cartridges and then replacing the 
>>>>>>>> files
>>>>>>>> with newly requested books from NLS patrons. NLS has contracted 
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> a company to load books, mass produce books and ship them out to 
>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>> regional libraries. Like the audio cassettes the cartridges are 
>>>>>>>> kept
>>>>>>>> in their blue shipping boxes ready to be pulled off the library
>>>>>>>> shelves, affixed with the patron's address card and mailed out. 
>>>>>>>> What
>>>>>>>> would be the point of fixing the cartridges so they can not be 
>>>>>>>> erased
>>>>>>>> only to have the librarians replace the books with other books on 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> same cartridge?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Kearney"
>>>>>>>> <gkearney at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "Discussion of Digital Talking Books" <dtb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2011 3:18 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] The Physical Cartridges themselves?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It would be possible to build an SD card reader into the housing 
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> a NSL Drive. We have considered building such a thing but right 
>>>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>>>> the drives are less expensive and you have to have a really BIG
>>>>>>>>> order to justify all the plastic production work.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gregory Kearney | Manager Accessible Media
>>>>>>>>> Association for the Blind of WA - Guide Dogs WA
>>>>>>>>> PO Box 101, Victoria Park WA 6979 | 61 Kitchener Ave, Victoria 
>>>>>>>>> Park
>>>>>>>>> WA 6100
>>>>>>>>> Tel: 08 9311 8246 | Fax: 08 9361 8696 | www.guidedogswa.com.au
>>>>>>>>> Tel: 307-224-4022 (North America)
>>>>>>>>> Email: greg.kearney at guidedogswa.com.au
>>>>>>>>> Email: gkearney at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 30/07/2011, at 1:31 AM, Eric SS wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Paul, good question. It would be interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I was just wondering why the blank cartridges we can buy are
>>>>>>>>>> limited to 1 or
>>>>>>>>>> 2GB. Also, why couldn't there be an empty cartridge so that we
>>>>>>>>>> could insert
>>>>>>>>>> an SD card of whatever capacity.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Curious minds keep us from getting work done...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Eric SS
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Dtb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for Dtb-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org/gkearney%40gmail.c
>>> om
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Dtb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for Dtb-talk:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org/evans-lynn%40comca
>>> st.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Dtb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> Dtb-talk:
>>>>>>>>
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org/gkearney%40gmail.c
>>> om
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Dtb-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> Dtb-talk:
>>>>>>>
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org/evans-lynn%40comca
>>> st.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Dtb-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Dtb-talk:
>>>>>>
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org/dornetta%40gmail.c
>>> om
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Dtb-talk mailing list
>>>>> Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Dtb-talk:
>>>>>
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org/jbar%40barcore.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Dtb-talk mailing list
>>>> Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Dtb-talk:
>>>>
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org/gkearney%40gmail.c
>>> om
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Dtb-talk mailing list
>>> Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Dtb-talk:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Dtb-talk mailing list
>>> Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Dtb-talk:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org/fmillion%40gmail.c
>> om
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Dtb-talk mailing list
>> Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Dtb-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org/dleavens%40puc.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Dtb-talk mailing list
>> Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Dtb-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Dtb-talk mailing list
>> Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Dtb-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org/fmillion%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dtb-talk mailing list
> Dtb-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Dtb-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/dtb-talk_nfbnet.org/evans-lynn%40comcast.net 