[Dtb-talk] The Physical Cartridges themselves?

Mon Aug 1 22:14:34 UTC 2011

interesting points flint!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Flint Million" <fmillion at gmail.com>
To: "Discussion of Digital Talking Books" <dtb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 5:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] The Physical Cartridges themselves?


> Agreed. The law may not specifically require the encryption, but the
> fact is the publishers DO cooperate in this issue. Encryption is used
> all over the place in consumer media. Nearly any digital content you
> purchase online (save for music) includes DRM, so the NLS is just
> along for the ride.
>
> I don't think publishers even care about the way the content "sounds".
> NLS content, even though often read by a volunteer reader, is still an
> audiobook. (Although some books nowadays seem to be being directly
> converted from the commercial audiobook sources) Content read even by
> a crappy speech synthesizer, in their eyes, is still an audiobook.
> Audiobooks have always cost a lot more to the public than print books.
> In their eyes, this means jeopardization of profits. This is one place
> I think these companies need to stop and look at. Not every
> *potential* lost dollar is an *actual* lost dollar...
>
>
> F
>
> On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 8:55 AM, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>> You may deem it "twaddle" but in the end, it's the opinion of publishers,
>> together with the influence that NFB and ACB can bring to bear that NLS 
>> must
>> deal with in order to produce digital talking books. And lest you think
>> there isn't much of a market for the books, consider the flap a few years
>> ago when web-braille was shutdown for a few weeks simply by virtue of the
>> fact that some books had been illegally distributed.
>>
>> I doubt that my words will convince you, however. In a sense, it's just 
>> one
>> more skirmish in the ongoing war between those who want *everything*
>> available on the Internet or via other digital means and those whose
>> livelihood depends upon royalties for material and who therefore favor 
>> DRM
>> schemes and the like.
>>
>> Mike Freeman
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: dtb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:dtb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Dale Leavens
>> Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 5:41 AM
>> To: Discussion of Digital Talking Books
>> Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] The Physical Cartridges themselves?
>>
>> And is there really a huge market in pirated NLS or BookShare content? 
>> Would
>>
>> it really cost any significant number of say audible book sales or CD 
>> sales?
>>
>> What a load of twaddle over a non-issue!
>>
>> Dale Leavens.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Flint Million" <fmillion at gmail.com>
>> To: "Discussion of Digital Talking Books" <dtb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 8:22 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] The Physical Cartridges themselves?
>>
>>
>> If you look at physical form-factor, there is indeed no problem
>> integrating an SD card reader into the form factor of an NLS
>> cartridge. I imagine perhaps a lift-up cover on top, wherein you lay
>> the SD card and clasp the cover closed. Some GSM phones use a similar
>> technique to secure the SIM card inside the phone. Although, as was
>> pointed out, the production costs may not be justifiable. I'd imagine
>> someone could probably custom-build one on their own using the PCB
>> from an SD card reader and just doing some modifications on a standard
>> cart...
>>
>> The compatible cables are available at Dollar Tree stores for $1. As
>> was pointed out, it is important to check whether the end that will
>> connect to the cartridge will fit. Nearly all extender cables with
>> plastic housing around that connector will not work - it needs to be
>> just the bare metal shielding. (Here's one area where "cheap is
>> better"!)
>>
>> The fact that Greg said that students were able to "hack" the write
>> protection confirms my belief that it is controlled by a custom USB
>> command. USB mass storage is directly based on SCSI, and it allows for
>> custom command sets to be embedded with the standard ones, so that
>> makes total sense. Too bad you guys didn't figure that out before
>> having to send all those carts back!....
>>
>> The main problems with using USB flash media in the NLS players stems
>> mainly from the fact that the NLS player uses the USB suspend
>> functions to minimize power usage. Not all USB storage devices support
>> this command properly. Some devices interpret it as a "shut down"
>> command and disappear from the USB link. Others freeze up on the
>> command because they don't know how to process it. Obviously the NLS
>> carts have been designed from day one to properly support this
>> feature. Through the options.xml file you can disable USB suspend on a
>> per-drive basis which often solves the problem. Using this method I've
>> successfully used SD card, CF card and even hard drives on the NLS
>> player. (obviously, hard drives need to be powered by some other
>> means, such as a wall plug, as they will overload the NLS's power
>> system!)
>>
>> The only problems I personally see with an NLS app for iPhone is the
>> potential for key leakage. The NLS encryption system depends
>> completely on the security of a very small number of private
>> encryption keys which must be stored in the device intended to play
>> the content. (This is why you have to "authorize" your Victor
>> Reader/BookSense/etc. You're installing those private keys, which have
>> been further encrypted - which is why you need to provide your serial
>> number.)
>>
>> This is why the NLS has generally been so adamant about keeping
>> playback limited to embedded, purpose-built devices - they're MUCH
>> harder to hack into and steal keys from. In a device like the NLS
>> player, the key can be stored and presumed relatively secure because
>> it's not accessible by the user. However, if you were to place the
>> same key onto a PC, where DVD, Blu-ray, and software licensing
>> encryption schemes are "cracked" very rapidly, I'm sure you can
>> imagine how quickly someone would be able to steal the key.
>>
>> An NLS app for iOS would present the same security flaw because
>> jailbroken iOS devices are no different than PCs - open and hackable.
>> Personally, I'd be afraid that if an iOS app came out, and the key was
>> subsequently stolen and used to decrypt content en masse, that the NLS
>> would end up having to not only pull the NLS app, but become even more
>> strict on our use of the content to begin with.
>>
>> The encryption is not the NLS being "mean", it's part of their
>> exemption under copyright law, which requires them to prevent access
>> to the content by non-blind and non-disabled people. The 4-track
>> format served the exact same purpose (along with offering
>> much-expanded tape capacity), and while it was pretty easy to figure
>> out for anyone with a bit of audio background, the common person
>> wouldn't have been able to use the cassettes, and even if they knew
>> how, it'd require a bit of work and some expensive audio equipment
>> (for the time).
>>
>> F
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 10:21 PM, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>> One observation about an NLS iPhone app: while I'd love such an app, it
>>> would eat the iPhone battery alive so one would need one of those USB
>>> charging packs or something similar to get anywhere near the life you 
>>> get
>>> with a VR Stream, BookSense, Book Port Plus or especially the NLS 
>>> player.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: dtb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:dtb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Greg Kearney
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 5:24 PM
>>> To: Discussion of Digital Talking Books
>>> Cc: Discussion of Digital Talking Books
>>> Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] The Physical Cartridges themselves?
>>>
>>> We wrote an iPhone app DaisyWorm which can read the DAISY/NISO 2002 
>>> format
>>> which the NLS uses. We contacted the NLS and offered to make that 
>>> software
>>> work with their books they never replied to us.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> Greg Kearney
>>> Association for the Blind of Western Australia
>>>
>>> On 31/07/2011, at 7:58 AM, Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> No, no iphone player for NLS books.
>>>>
>>>> Various rumors say that NLS might be working on something, but nobody
>>>> knows if it's true nor when such a thing might be released.
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 07:47:36PM -0400, Dornetta wrote:
>>>>> Hello all:
>>>>> I have been monitoring this convo for a while and would like to
>>> ask...does
>>>>> NLS has a app for the iPhone?
>>>>> I find that while enjoying books via the DTBM is a +, it becomes a
>>> nuisence
>>>>> when travel is thrown into the mix. :-( I am saying that this is an
>>>>> "bad"
>>>>> concept or thing but useing the VR Stream/DTBM vs. the iPhone allows 
>>>>> for
>>>>> more portibility. What a great concept if this was possible :-)
>>>>> Netta
>>>>> "Just because you are blind, does not mean you lack vision"-Stevie
>>>>> Wonder
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Evans" 
>>>>> <evans-lynn at comcast.net>
>>>>> To: "Discussion of Digital Talking Books" <dtb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 2:28 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] The Physical Cartridges themselves?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I would think NLS has a few more patrons then you do Down Under.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also you have a central location and NLS has regional libraries 
>>>>>> spread
>>>>>> throughout the 50 states.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not only are the cartridges right protected, according to my library
>>> here
>>>>>> in Florida each cartridge with a book has the firmware on it for the
>>>>>> NLS
>>>>>> player.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Kearney" 
>>>>>> <gkearney at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "Discussion of Digital Talking Books" <dtb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 12:05 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] The Physical Cartridges themselves?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well as I said we went a different rout here. We assigned the
>>>>>>> cartridge
>>>>>>> to the user and not the book. We then developed software that reads
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> unique serial number tied to each cartridge and then erases and lads
>>>>>>> that users next set of books.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This achieves several things:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. No book is ever "put of stock" as we do not store copies on a 
>>>>>>> self
>>>>>>> but rather on a server.
>>>>>>> 2. We need only about 2 cartridges per user this reducing the number
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> cartridge required.
>>>>>>> 3. We reduce the number of packages that go out in the mails by
>>>>>>> putting
>>>>>>> several books on a drive.
>>>>>>> 4. We no longer need a big room filled up with shelves for books.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As a result our drives are not write protected and as of yet that 
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> never been an issue for us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gregory Kearney | Manager Accessible Media
>>>>>>> Association for the Blind of WA - Guide Dogs WA
>>>>>>> PO Box 101, Victoria Park WA 6979 | 61 Kitchener Ave, Victoria Park 
>>>>>>> WA
>>>>>>> 6100
>>>>>>> Tel: 08 9311 8246 | Fax: 08 9361 8696 | www.guidedogswa.com.au
>>>>>>> Tel: 307-224-4022 (North America)
>>>>>>> Email: greg.kearney at guidedogswa.com.au
>>>>>>> Email: gkearney at gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 30/07/2011, at 11:50 AM, Lynn Evans wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please allow me to chime or clang in on this subject.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The cartridges are indeed flash drives in a different form that is 
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> a cartridge with a big finger hole on one end and the USB connector
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> the other end.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The cable used to connect a blank cartridge to the computer is a
>>>>>>>> standard USB extension cable. The cable will be able to connect one
>>>>>>>> end to the other end like a necklace. I have been told these cables
>>>>>>>> can be found in the Dollar Store for you guessed it a dollar.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> NLS did not choose to use flash drives or even smaller flash cards
>>>>>>>> because of the dexterity issues that some patrons would have with
>>>>>>>> working with small objects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The use of a flash card reader along with a flash card is 
>>>>>>>> problematic
>>>>>>>> at best. NLS has recommended during the BARD pilot phrase that 
>>>>>>>> flash
>>>>>>>> cards not be used with the NLS digital players. Some may have
>>>>>>>> reported
>>>>>>>> some success in their use. Others have reported slow access of data
>>>>>>>> transfer from card to player causing the player to loose its place 
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> the book.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is a waist of human resources and librarian's time for them to 
>>>>>>>> sit
>>>>>>>> at a computer all day erasing cartridges and then replacing the 
>>>>>>>> files
>>>>>>>> with newly requested books from NLS patrons. NLS has contracted 
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> a company to load books, mass produce books and ship them out to 
>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>> regional libraries. Like the audio cassettes the cartridges are 
>>>>>>>> kept
>>>>>>>> in their blue shipping boxes ready to be pulled off the library
>>>>>>>> shelves, affixed with the patron's address card and mailed out. 
>>>>>>>> What
>>>>>>>> would be the point of fixing the cartridges so they can not be 
>>>>>>>> erased
>>>>>>>> only to have the librarians replace the books with other books on 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> same cartridge?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Kearney"
>>>>>>>> <gkearney at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "Discussion of Digital Talking Books" <dtb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2011 3:18 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] The Physical Cartridges themselves?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It would be possible to build an SD card reader into the housing 
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> a NSL Drive. We have considered building such a thing but right 
>>>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>>>> the drives are less expensive and you have to have a really BIG
>>>>>>>>> order to justify all the plastic production work.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gregory Kearney | Manager Accessible Media
>>>>>>>>> Association for the Blind of WA - Guide Dogs WA
>>>>>>>>> PO Box 101, Victoria Park WA 6979 | 61 Kitchener Ave, Victoria 
>>>>>>>>> Park
>>>>>>>>> WA 6100
>>>>>>>>> Tel: 08 9311 8246 | Fax: 08 9361 8696 | www.guidedogswa.com.au
>>>>>>>>> Tel: 307-224-4022 (North America)
>>>>>>>>> Email: greg.kearney at guidedogswa.com.au
>>>>>>>>> Email: gkearney at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 30/07/2011, at 1:31 AM, Eric SS wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Paul, good question. It would be interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I was just wondering why the blank cartridges we can buy are
>>>>>>>>>> limited to 1 or
>>>>>>>>>> 2GB. Also, why couldn't there be an empty cartridge so that we
>>>>>>>>>> could insert
>>>>>>>>>> an SD card of whatever capacity.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Curious minds keep us from getting work done...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Eric SS
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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