[Dtb-talk] The Physical Cartridges themselves?

Sun Jul 31 12:41:08 UTC 2011

And is there really a huge market in pirated NLS or BookShare content? Would 
it really cost any significant number of say audible book sales or CD sales?

What a load of twaddle over a non-issue!

Dale Leavens.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Flint Million" <fmillion at gmail.com>
To: "Discussion of Digital Talking Books" <dtb-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] The Physical Cartridges themselves?

If you look at physical form-factor, there is indeed no problem
integrating an SD card reader into the form factor of an NLS
cartridge. I imagine perhaps a lift-up cover on top, wherein you lay
the SD card and clasp the cover closed. Some GSM phones use a similar
technique to secure the SIM card inside the phone. Although, as was
pointed out, the production costs may not be justifiable. I'd imagine
someone could probably custom-build one on their own using the PCB
from an SD card reader and just doing some modifications on a standard
cart...

The compatible cables are available at Dollar Tree stores for $1. As
was pointed out, it is important to check whether the end that will
connect to the cartridge will fit. Nearly all extender cables with
plastic housing around that connector will not work - it needs to be
just the bare metal shielding. (Here's one area where "cheap is
better"!)

The fact that Greg said that students were able to "hack" the write
protection confirms my belief that it is controlled by a custom USB
command. USB mass storage is directly based on SCSI, and it allows for
custom command sets to be embedded with the standard ones, so that
makes total sense. Too bad you guys didn't figure that out before
having to send all those carts back!....

The main problems with using USB flash media in the NLS players stems
mainly from the fact that the NLS player uses the USB suspend
functions to minimize power usage. Not all USB storage devices support
this command properly. Some devices interpret it as a "shut down"
command and disappear from the USB link. Others freeze up on the
command because they don't know how to process it. Obviously the NLS
carts have been designed from day one to properly support this
feature. Through the options.xml file you can disable USB suspend on a
per-drive basis which often solves the problem. Using this method I've
successfully used SD card, CF card and even hard drives on the NLS
player. (obviously, hard drives need to be powered by some other
means, such as a wall plug, as they will overload the NLS's power
system!)

The only problems I personally see with an NLS app for iPhone is the
potential for key leakage. The NLS encryption system depends
completely on the security of a very small number of private
encryption keys which must be stored in the device intended to play
the content. (This is why you have to "authorize" your Victor
Reader/BookSense/etc. You're installing those private keys, which have
been further encrypted - which is why you need to provide your serial
number.)

This is why the NLS has generally been so adamant about keeping
playback limited to embedded, purpose-built devices - they're MUCH
harder to hack into and steal keys from. In a device like the NLS
player, the key can be stored and presumed relatively secure because
it's not accessible by the user. However, if you were to place the
same key onto a PC, where DVD, Blu-ray, and software licensing
encryption schemes are "cracked" very rapidly, I'm sure you can
imagine how quickly someone would be able to steal the key.

An NLS app for iOS would present the same security flaw because
jailbroken iOS devices are no different than PCs - open and hackable.
Personally, I'd be afraid that if an iOS app came out, and the key was
subsequently stolen and used to decrypt content en masse, that the NLS
would end up having to not only pull the NLS app, but become even more
strict on our use of the content to begin with.

The encryption is not the NLS being "mean", it's part of their
exemption under copyright law, which requires them to prevent access
to the content by non-blind and non-disabled people. The 4-track
format served the exact same purpose (along with offering
much-expanded tape capacity), and while it was pretty easy to figure
out for anyone with a bit of audio background, the common person
wouldn't have been able to use the cassettes, and even if they knew
how, it'd require a bit of work and some expensive audio equipment
(for the time).

F

On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 10:21 PM, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
> One observation about an NLS iPhone app: while I'd love such an app, it
> would eat the iPhone battery alive so one would need one of those USB
> charging packs or something similar to get anywhere near the life you get
> with a VR Stream, BookSense, Book Port Plus or especially the NLS player.
>
> Mike
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dtb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:dtb-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Greg Kearney
> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 5:24 PM
> To: Discussion of Digital Talking Books
> Cc: Discussion of Digital Talking Books
> Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] The Physical Cartridges themselves?
>
> We wrote an iPhone app DaisyWorm which can read the DAISY/NISO 2002 format
> which the NLS uses. We contacted the NLS and offered to make that software
> work with their books they never replied to us.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> Greg Kearney
> Association for the Blind of Western Australia
>
> On 31/07/2011, at 7:58 AM, Jim Barbour <jbar at barcore.com> wrote:
>
>> No, no iphone player for NLS books.
>>
>> Various rumors say that NLS might be working on something, but nobody
>> knows if it's true nor when such a thing might be released.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 07:47:36PM -0400, Dornetta wrote:
>>> Hello all:
>>> I have been monitoring this convo for a while and would like to
> ask...does
>>> NLS has a app for the iPhone?
>>> I find that while enjoying books via the DTBM is a +, it becomes a
> nuisence
>>> when travel is thrown into the mix. :-( I am saying that this is an 
>>> "bad"
>>> concept or thing but useing the VR Stream/DTBM vs. the iPhone allows for
>>> more portibility. What a great concept if this was possible :-)
>>> Netta
>>> "Just because you are blind, does not mean you lack vision"-Stevie 
>>> Wonder
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Evans" <evans-lynn at comcast.net>
>>> To: "Discussion of Digital Talking Books" <dtb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 2:28 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] The Physical Cartridges themselves?
>>>
>>>
>>>> I would think NLS has a few more patrons then you do Down Under.
>>>>
>>>> Also you have a central location and NLS has regional libraries spread
>>>> throughout the 50 states.
>>>>
>>>> Not only are the cartridges right protected, according to my library
> here
>>>> in Florida each cartridge with a book has the firmware on it for the 
>>>> NLS
>>>> player.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Kearney" <gkearney at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Discussion of Digital Talking Books" <dtb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 12:05 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] The Physical Cartridges themselves?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Well as I said we went a different rout here. We assigned the 
>>>>> cartridge
>>>>> to the user and not the book. We then developed software that reads 
>>>>> the
>>>>> unique serial number tied to each cartridge and then erases and lads
>>>>> that users next set of books.
>>>>>
>>>>> This achieves several things:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. No book is ever "put of stock" as we do not store copies on a self
>>>>> but rather on a server.
>>>>> 2. We need only about 2 cartridges per user this reducing the number 
>>>>> of
>>>>> cartridge required.
>>>>> 3. We reduce the number of packages that go out in the mails by 
>>>>> putting
>>>>> several books on a drive.
>>>>> 4. We no longer need a big room filled up with shelves for books.
>>>>>
>>>>> As a result our drives are not write protected and as of yet that has
>>>>> never been an issue for us.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gregory Kearney | Manager Accessible Media
>>>>> Association for the Blind of WA - Guide Dogs WA
>>>>> PO Box 101, Victoria Park WA 6979 | 61 Kitchener Ave, Victoria Park WA
>>>>> 6100
>>>>> Tel: 08 9311 8246 | Fax: 08 9361 8696 | www.guidedogswa.com.au
>>>>> Tel: 307-224-4022 (North America)
>>>>> Email: greg.kearney at guidedogswa.com.au
>>>>> Email: gkearney at gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> On 30/07/2011, at 11:50 AM, Lynn Evans wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Please allow me to chime or clang in on this subject.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The cartridges are indeed flash drives in a different form that is in
>>>>>> a cartridge with a big finger hole on one end and the USB connector 
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> the other end.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The cable used to connect a blank cartridge to the computer is a
>>>>>> standard USB extension cable. The cable will be able to connect one
>>>>>> end to the other end like a necklace. I have been told these cables
>>>>>> can be found in the Dollar Store for you guessed it a dollar.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NLS did not choose to use flash drives or even smaller flash cards
>>>>>> because of the dexterity issues that some patrons would have with
>>>>>> working with small objects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The use of a flash card reader along with a flash card is problematic
>>>>>> at best. NLS has recommended during the BARD pilot phrase that flash
>>>>>> cards not be used with the NLS digital players. Some may have 
>>>>>> reported
>>>>>> some success in their use. Others have reported slow access of data
>>>>>> transfer from card to player causing the player to loose its place in
>>>>>> the book.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is a waist of human resources and librarian's time for them to sit
>>>>>> at a computer all day erasing cartridges and then replacing the files
>>>>>> with newly requested books from NLS patrons. NLS has contracted with
>>>>>> a company to load books, mass produce books and ship them out to our
>>>>>> regional libraries. Like the audio cassettes the cartridges are kept
>>>>>> in their blue shipping boxes ready to be pulled off the library
>>>>>> shelves, affixed with the patron's address card and mailed out. What
>>>>>> would be the point of fixing the cartridges so they can not be erased
>>>>>> only to have the librarians replace the books with other books on the
>>>>>> same cartridge?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Kearney" 
>>>>>> <gkearney at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "Discussion of Digital Talking Books" <dtb-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2011 3:18 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Dtb-talk] The Physical Cartridges themselves?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It would be possible to build an SD card reader into the housing of
>>>>>>> a NSL Drive. We have considered building such a thing but right now
>>>>>>> the drives are less expensive and you have to have a really BIG
>>>>>>> order to justify all the plastic production work.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gregory Kearney | Manager Accessible Media
>>>>>>> Association for the Blind of WA - Guide Dogs WA
>>>>>>> PO Box 101, Victoria Park WA 6979 | 61 Kitchener Ave, Victoria Park
>>>>>>> WA 6100
>>>>>>> Tel: 08 9311 8246 | Fax: 08 9361 8696 | www.guidedogswa.com.au
>>>>>>> Tel: 307-224-4022 (North America)
>>>>>>> Email: greg.kearney at guidedogswa.com.au
>>>>>>> Email: gkearney at gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 30/07/2011, at 1:31 AM, Eric SS wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Paul, good question. It would be interesting.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was just wondering why the blank cartridges we can buy are
>>>>>>>> limited to 1 or
>>>>>>>> 2GB. Also, why couldn't there be an empty cartridge so that we
>>>>>>>> could insert
>>>>>>>> an SD card of whatever capacity.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Curious minds keep us from getting work done...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Eric SS
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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