[Electronics-talk] Apple and accessibility (was Re: More On the Narrator Radio)

Baracco, Andrew W Andrew.Baracco at va.gov
Thu Aug 2 15:43:29 UTC 2012 

Spoken readouts for amateur radio equipment have been available since
the 1980's, and this was done not just for blind persons, but for people
who worked the radio while driving.  Speech output on the LG VX4500 cell
phone was again not done for the blind, but for motorists who needed to
keep their eyes on the road.  The important thing is that the mind set
needs to be changed so that these adaptations are not looked at as
special things for people with special needs, but simply an extension of
the range of options.  Most people do not use most of the functions that
their device is capable of, but those functions are there anyway.  Curb
cuts at street corners were first designed for people in wheelchairs,
but are now almost considered a necessity by bicyclists, skate boarders,
and people pushing shopping carts and baby strollers.

Andy


-----Original Message-----
From: electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jude DaShiell
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 8:31 PM
To: Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] Apple and accessibility (was Re: More On
the Narrator Radio)

Most of the population acquire disabilities with age and as those
disabilities reach ceertain tipping points it is no longer possible for
the health care industry to overcome them.  It is at that point people
will have the opportunity to enable accessibility features they would
not have used earlier in their lives.  Also, VoiceOver gets more use on
Apple products by sighted multitaskers than just the blind or dyslexics
who can look at a windows screen and listen to their mac at the same
time.  Multitasking while driving is proving fatal on our roads though.
Also, everyone has paid for Screen Narrator since Windows 2000 days from
Microsoft and that pre-dates Apple's Voiceover.

On Wed, 1 Aug 2012, Jim Barbour wrote:

> Apple absolutely did not teach us that accessibility need not cost
more.  It absolutely does cost more.  Apple has a team of people doing
accessibility development, trainers who teach customer service folks
about accessibility, a dedicated helpdesk for accessibility, and
probably other accessibility costs I haven't mentioned.
> 
> What Apple has tought us is that you can lower the cost of accessible
products if you make all your customers pay for it, reguardless of
whether they'll use it.  This is not much different than everyone paying
for full Internationalization, even though most of us will only use one
or two languages.
> 
> This funding model doesn't always work.  It requires that you be a
popular enough company that you can afford to invest in accessibility
and then recover those costs when you sell your accessible product in
the general marketplace.
> 
> I don't think anyone other than Apple and Google have really made this
model pay off.
> 
> Jim
> 
> > On Jul 31, 2012, at 6:31 PM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
> > 
> > > I'm not sure Apple has taught us that accessibility need not cost
> > more.
> > > I think what Apple has taught us is that accessibility in high end

> > > products need not cost more. Apple products need not cost more to 
> > > get accessibility but they're not the cheapest products to begin
with.
> > > 
> > > On 30/07/12 16:48, Baracco, Andrew W wrote:
> > >> Radios like these are not the answer as regards access.  The 
> > >> answer is universal access, just like what is being done with
phones.
> > >> Unless a lot of sighted persons buy this radio, it won't be 
> > >> around this time next year.  We don't need a radio for the blind.

> > >> I've owned radios all my life, and have been able to tune them.  
> > >> What we need is universal access built into a range of products 
> > >> that are sold
> > 
> > >> in mainstream stores or through mainstream outlets.  The Apple 
> > >> devices have shown us that accessibility need not cost more, and 
> > >> that
> > 
> > >> special devices do not have to be manufactured for blind persons.

> > >> I do not plan to buy one of these radios any time soon.
> > >> 
> > >> Andy
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
> > >> [mailto:electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Roland 
> > >> Hudson
> > >> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 2:30 PM
> > >> To: Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances
> > >> Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] More On the Narrator Radio
> > >> 
> > >> Steve,
> > >> You have pretty well summed up my thoughts on this radio. I'm 
> > >> pleased
> > 
> > >> to have it and think while it's not close to perfection, 
> > >> manufacturers should be encouraged when they are trying to do 
> > >> something special for us. I hope the radio sells well enough to 
> > >> encourage more manufacturers to bring us products we can use.
> > >> 
> > >> Best wishes,
> > >> 
> > >> Rollie
> > >> 
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
> > >> To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances" 
> > >> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
> > >> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 12:37 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] More On the Narrator Radio
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >>> Gerald,
> > >>> 
> > >>> When I heard some of the original promotional materials, I was 
> > >>> very skeptical about reading artist information as that would 
> > >>> require some
> > >> kind
> > >>> of text to speech conversion.  To what degree that could have 
> > >>> run on
> > 
> > >>> whatever microprocessor is being used is something I don't know.
> > >> Given
> > >>> that it is done to some degree on cordless phone handsets, 
> > >>> although
> > >> not
> > >>> all that well, and on some cellphones, it certainly is possible,

> > >>> but
> > 
> > >>> I don't know what such a system costs.  Even so, I don't
> > >> 
> > >>> think such claims should have been made when it was likely known

> > >>> by someone that those claims were not true.  However, I also 
> > >>> know that the press releases were probably written by marketers 
> > >>> who don't
> > >> know
> > >>> the difference between text-to-speech and fixed-vocabulary
speech.
> > >> They
> > >>> would assume if it can speak the time and frequency when it is 
> > >>> displayed, it can certainly display the artist.  You and I
> > >> know
> > >>> those are two different things, but it isn't obvious to the
public.
> > >>> 
> > >>> It would be nice had the radio handled that situation, and I 
> > >>> also have
> > >> 
> > >>> some frustrations that you have to wait until an announcement
> > >> completes in
> > >>> some cases before pressing a given button again.  This is not a 
> > >>> perfect radio.  I also don't like the preset system that is 
> > >>> used, and
> > >> this
> > >>> has nothing to do with accessibility.  Presets are more like 
> > >>> bookmarks
> > >> as
> > >>> you move up and down the band in that they seem to be ordered by

> > >>> frequency.  I like to group my presets by the type of 
> > >>> programming
> > >> even
> > >>> if the stations are not next to each other on the dial.
> > >>> 
> > >>> Nevertheless, after dealing with a Bose and some other radios 
> > >>> for a
> > >> long
> > >>> time, it does almost feel like a miracle to me that I can deal 
> > >>> with
> > >> the
> > >>> clock myself.  No more having the radio coming on at midnight.  
> > >>> I also liked the fact that they put the whole manual on the CD 
> > >>> and not
> > >> just
> > >>> the part that dealt with accessibility.  Finally, the antenna
> > >> connections
> > >>> to this radio are the same as is commonly used on most stereos, 
> > >>> even
> > 
> > >>> small ones, except for those that are truly portable.  I have a
> > >> Teac
> > >>> HD Radio for example, and my kids have two small Sony stereos 
> > >>> that
> > >> also
> > >>> use an AM loop and an FM dipole antenna in each case.
> > >>> Therefore, I think that criticism is a little harsh and really 
> > >>> doesn't
> > >> 
> > >>> have much to do with accessibility.  I also think that the AM
> > >> sensitivity
> > >>> is poor, and while I don't like it, I have also found that to be
> > >> pretty
> > >>> common
> > >>> on many small stereos, and even some pretty good stereos that 
> > >>> use
> > >> these
> > >>> small square loops.  I think this radio is actually better on AM

> > >>> than
> > >> is
> > >>> the Teac HD radio that I own.  I think it is unfortunate when 
> > >>> one can't believe advertising, but frankly, I take all 
> > >>> promotional
> > >> material
> > >>> about anything with a few granes of salt so I was less bothered 
> > >>> by
> > >> some of
> > >>> the shortcomings than you were.
> > >>> 
> > >>> In short, I think we have to be sure people know what they are 
> > >>> getting
> > >> 
> > >>> when they buy this radio, and comments here help make that 
> > >>> possible,
> > >> but I
> > >>> don't regret buying mine at all.
> > >>> 
> > >>> Best regards,
> > >>> 
> > >>> Steve Jacobson
> > >>> 
> > >>> On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 14:07:43 -0400, Gerald Levy wrote:
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>>> The following editorial about the Narrator HD radio was 
> > >>>> published in
> > >> this
> > >>>> weeks's edition of the Mathilda Ziegler Magazine for the Blind:
> > >>> 
> > >>>> Op Ed with Bob Branco - The Narrator Isn't All That was 
> > >>>> Advertised
> > >>> 
> > >>>> Several weeks ago, most of you heard about a wonderful new 
> > >>>> radio that
> > >> Best
> > >>>> Buy was selling called the Narrator.  It is supposed to be the 
> > >>>> best
> > >> radio
> > >>>> for visually impaired people ever manufactured.  While
> > >>> reading one of the original press releases, I was so enthused 
> > >>> with the
> > >> 
> > >>> information that I ordered the Narrator myself.  Why not?  It is
> > >> supposed
> > >>> to be extremely user friendly for the blind and visually
impaired.
> > >>> 
> > >>>> While it allows you to set the clock, the alarm, the radio 
> > >>>> band, and specific radio stations by using voice application, 
> > >>>> the Narrator does
> > >> not
> > >>>> totally perform as it was advertised.  For example, in a press 
> > >>>> release
> > >> I
> > >>> received as part of a mass email from a consumer organization, 
> > >>> it
> > >> states
> > >>> in one of the paragraphs as follows:  "With speech turned on, 
> > >>> the
> > >> radio
> > >>> will announce the artist and song, and will show and announce 
> > >>> visual
> > 
> > >>> images as well."  This is not true.  Though the Narrator may 
> > >>> display
> > 
> > >>> artist and song titles on the screen if you happen to find an
> > >> HD
> > >>> radio station that provides that service, you won't hear it in 
> > >>> voice
> > >> mode.
> > >>> 
> > >>>> If a blind person hopes to use the menu or bookmark buttons to
> > >> navigate
> > >>>> the radio in voice mode, think again.  Those two features are 
> > >>>> for just
> > >> the
> > >>>> sighted.
> > >>> 
> > >>>> Although the Narrator comes with an audio CD instruction 
> > >>>> manual, which
> > >> 
> > >>>> most people may feel is what you should read in order to use 
> > >>>> the
> > >> product,
> > >>>> the only section of the CD that benefits the blind is track 12.
> > >>> 
> > >>>> If you feel that locating HD radio stations is difficult with 
> > >>>> the Narrator, well, it's just as tough to tune in a regular
A.M.
> > station.
> > >> The
> > >>>> Narrator does not come with a normal telescopic antenna which 
> > >>>> you can
> > >>> rotate.  It comes with two plastic shoelace Y-shaped antennas 
> > >>> which
> > >> you
> > >>> have to plug into two different adaptors on the back of the 
> > >>> radio, and
> > >> 
> > >>> even after you plug them in, you have to swing the antennas 
> > >>> around, especially the A.M. one, in order to pick up a station 
> > >>> which
> > >> may
> > >>> be as close as 25 miles away.
> > >>> 
> > >>>> I have one more side note.  Although Best Buy uses the Insignia

> > >>>> label
> > >> on
> > >>>> the Narrator as well as other products, a representative from 
> > >>>> Insignia
> > >> 
> > >>>> told me that the company had nothing to do with manufacturing
> > >>> the Narrator.
> > >>> 
> > >>>> So, if you are blind and are satisfied with setting the clock 
> > >>>> and
> > >> alarm on
> > >>>> your own, finding and presetting radio stations and tuning into
> > >> certain
> > >>>> frequencies, then you will like the Narrator.  But do not 
> > >>>> expect it
> > 
> > >>>> to
> > >>> be the miracle radio that's being advertised, because it isn't.
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>>> Gerald
> > >>> 
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> Electronics-talk mailing list
> > >>>> Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org
> > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org
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> > >>>> info for
> > >>>> Electronics-talk:
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> > >>>> teve
> > >>>> .ja
> > >> cobson%40visi.com
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> _______________________________________________
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> > >> lies
> > >> hir
> > >> l%40cox.net
> > >> 
> > >> 
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> > >> for
> > >> Electronics-talk:
> > >>
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/andrew.
> > >> bar
> > >> acco%40va.gov
> > >> 
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> > >> 
> > > 
> > > --
> > > Christopher (CJ)
> > > chaltain at Gmail
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > 
> > 
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----------------------------------------------------------------
Hardware eventually fails; software eventually works, no amount of band
width can fix poor design

Jude <jdashiel-at-shellworld-dot-net>
<http://www.shellworld.net/~jdashiel/nj.html>


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