[Electronics-talk] Apple and accessibility (was Re: More On the Narrator Radio)

Fri Aug 3 05:32:49 UTC 2012

GPs system is redundant.
Vince

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Christopher Chaltain" <chaltain at gmail.com>
To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances" 
<electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2012 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] Apple and accessibility (was Re: More On the 
Narrator Radio)

> Rockbox has also had an eyes free mode for quite a while ,which was not
> done specifically for the blind, and of course GPS systems also use
> synthetic speech to read out directions for sighted drivers for quite a
> while as well. Although the Rockbox work resulted in an accessible MP3
> player, there's a whole order of magnitude more work involved in making
> a device accessible than there is in incorporating some speech output or
> eyes free features. I'm not disagreeing with the point here, but just
> pointing out that these two types of work aren't synonymous.
>
> On 02/08/12 10:43, Baracco, Andrew W wrote:
>> Spoken readouts for amateur radio equipment have been available since
>> the 1980's, and this was done not just for blind persons, but for people
>> who worked the radio while driving.  Speech output on the LG VX4500 cell
>> phone was again not done for the blind, but for motorists who needed to
>> keep their eyes on the road.  The important thing is that the mind set
>> needs to be changed so that these adaptations are not looked at as
>> special things for people with special needs, but simply an extension of
>> the range of options.  Most people do not use most of the functions that
>> their device is capable of, but those functions are there anyway.  Curb
>> cuts at street corners were first designed for people in wheelchairs,
>> but are now almost considered a necessity by bicyclists, skate boarders,
>> and people pushing shopping carts and baby strollers.
>>
>> Andy
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jude DaShiell
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 8:31 PM
>> To: Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances
>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] Apple and accessibility (was Re: More On
>> the Narrator Radio)
>>
>> Most of the population acquire disabilities with age and as those
>> disabilities reach ceertain tipping points it is no longer possible for
>> the health care industry to overcome them.  It is at that point people
>> will have the opportunity to enable accessibility features they would
>> not have used earlier in their lives.  Also, VoiceOver gets more use on
>> Apple products by sighted multitaskers than just the blind or dyslexics
>> who can look at a windows screen and listen to their mac at the same
>> time.  Multitasking while driving is proving fatal on our roads though.
>> Also, everyone has paid for Screen Narrator since Windows 2000 days from
>> Microsoft and that pre-dates Apple's Voiceover.
>>
>> On Wed, 1 Aug 2012, Jim Barbour wrote:
>>
>>> Apple absolutely did not teach us that accessibility need not cost
>> more.  It absolutely does cost more.  Apple has a team of people doing
>> accessibility development, trainers who teach customer service folks
>> about accessibility, a dedicated helpdesk for accessibility, and
>> probably other accessibility costs I haven't mentioned.
>>>
>>> What Apple has tought us is that you can lower the cost of accessible
>> products if you make all your customers pay for it, reguardless of
>> whether they'll use it.  This is not much different than everyone paying
>> for full Internationalization, even though most of us will only use one
>> or two languages.
>>>
>>> This funding model doesn't always work.  It requires that you be a
>> popular enough company that you can afford to invest in accessibility
>> and then recover those costs when you sell your accessible product in
>> the general marketplace.
>>>
>>> I don't think anyone other than Apple and Google have really made this
>> model pay off.
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>> On Jul 31, 2012, at 6:31 PM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure Apple has taught us that accessibility need not cost
>>>> more.
>>>>> I think what Apple has taught us is that accessibility in high end
>>
>>>>> products need not cost more. Apple products need not cost more to
>>>>> get accessibility but they're not the cheapest products to begin
>> with.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 30/07/12 16:48, Baracco, Andrew W wrote:
>>>>>> Radios like these are not the answer as regards access.  The
>>>>>> answer is universal access, just like what is being done with
>> phones.
>>>>>> Unless a lot of sighted persons buy this radio, it won't be
>>>>>> around this time next year.  We don't need a radio for the blind.
>>
>>>>>> I've owned radios all my life, and have been able to tune them.
>>>>>> What we need is universal access built into a range of products
>>>>>> that are sold
>>>>
>>>>>> in mainstream stores or through mainstream outlets.  The Apple
>>>>>> devices have shown us that accessibility need not cost more, and
>>>>>> that
>>>>
>>>>>> special devices do not have to be manufactured for blind persons.
>>
>>>>>> I do not plan to buy one of these radios any time soon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> [mailto:electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Roland
>>>>>> Hudson
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 2:30 PM
>>>>>> To: Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] More On the Narrator Radio
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve,
>>>>>> You have pretty well summed up my thoughts on this radio. I'm
>>>>>> pleased
>>>>
>>>>>> to have it and think while it's not close to perfection,
>>>>>> manufacturers should be encouraged when they are trying to do
>>>>>> something special for us. I hope the radio sells well enough to
>>>>>> encourage more manufacturers to bring us products we can use.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rollie
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>>>>> To: "Discussion of accessible electronics and appliances"
>>>>>> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 12:37 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-talk] More On the Narrator Radio
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gerald,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I heard some of the original promotional materials, I was
>>>>>>> very skeptical about reading artist information as that would
>>>>>>> require some
>>>>>> kind
>>>>>>> of text to speech conversion.  To what degree that could have
>>>>>>> run on
>>>>
>>>>>>> whatever microprocessor is being used is something I don't know.
>>>>>> Given
>>>>>>> that it is done to some degree on cordless phone handsets,
>>>>>>> although
>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> all that well, and on some cellphones, it certainly is possible,
>>
>>>>>>> but
>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know what such a system costs.  Even so, I don't
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> think such claims should have been made when it was likely known
>>
>>>>>>> by someone that those claims were not true.  However, I also
>>>>>>> know that the press releases were probably written by marketers
>>>>>>> who don't
>>>>>> know
>>>>>>> the difference between text-to-speech and fixed-vocabulary
>> speech.
>>>>>> They
>>>>>>> would assume if it can speak the time and frequency when it is
>>>>>>> displayed, it can certainly display the artist.  You and I
>>>>>> know
>>>>>>> those are two different things, but it isn't obvious to the
>> public.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It would be nice had the radio handled that situation, and I
>>>>>>> also have
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> some frustrations that you have to wait until an announcement
>>>>>> completes in
>>>>>>> some cases before pressing a given button again.  This is not a
>>>>>>> perfect radio.  I also don't like the preset system that is
>>>>>>> used, and
>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> has nothing to do with accessibility.  Presets are more like
>>>>>>> bookmarks
>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> you move up and down the band in that they seem to be ordered by
>>
>>>>>>> frequency.  I like to group my presets by the type of
>>>>>>> programming
>>>>>> even
>>>>>>> if the stations are not next to each other on the dial.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nevertheless, after dealing with a Bose and some other radios
>>>>>>> for a
>>>>>> long
>>>>>>> time, it does almost feel like a miracle to me that I can deal
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> clock myself.  No more having the radio coming on at midnight.
>>>>>>> I also liked the fact that they put the whole manual on the CD
>>>>>>> and not
>>>>>> just
>>>>>>> the part that dealt with accessibility.  Finally, the antenna
>>>>>> connections
>>>>>>> to this radio are the same as is commonly used on most stereos,
>>>>>>> even
>>>>
>>>>>>> small ones, except for those that are truly portable.  I have a
>>>>>> Teac
>>>>>>> HD Radio for example, and my kids have two small Sony stereos
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>> also
>>>>>>> use an AM loop and an FM dipole antenna in each case.
>>>>>>> Therefore, I think that criticism is a little harsh and really
>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> have much to do with accessibility.  I also think that the AM
>>>>>> sensitivity
>>>>>>> is poor, and while I don't like it, I have also found that to be
>>>>>> pretty
>>>>>>> common
>>>>>>> on many small stereos, and even some pretty good stereos that
>>>>>>> use
>>>>>> these
>>>>>>> small square loops.  I think this radio is actually better on AM
>>
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> the Teac HD radio that I own.  I think it is unfortunate when
>>>>>>> one can't believe advertising, but frankly, I take all
>>>>>>> promotional
>>>>>> material
>>>>>>> about anything with a few granes of salt so I was less bothered
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>> some of
>>>>>>> the shortcomings than you were.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In short, I think we have to be sure people know what they are
>>>>>>> getting
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> when they buy this radio, and comments here help make that
>>>>>>> possible,
>>>>>> but I
>>>>>>> don't regret buying mine at all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 30 Jul 2012 14:07:43 -0400, Gerald Levy wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The following editorial about the Narrator HD radio was
>>>>>>>> published in
>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> weeks's edition of the Mathilda Ziegler Magazine for the Blind:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Op Ed with Bob Branco - The Narrator Isn't All That was
>>>>>>>> Advertised
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Several weeks ago, most of you heard about a wonderful new
>>>>>>>> radio that
>>>>>> Best
>>>>>>>> Buy was selling called the Narrator.  It is supposed to be the
>>>>>>>> best
>>>>>> radio
>>>>>>>> for visually impaired people ever manufactured.  While
>>>>>>> reading one of the original press releases, I was so enthused
>>>>>>> with the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> information that I ordered the Narrator myself.  Why not?  It is
>>>>>> supposed
>>>>>>> to be extremely user friendly for the blind and visually
>> impaired.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While it allows you to set the clock, the alarm, the radio
>>>>>>>> band, and specific radio stations by using voice application,
>>>>>>>> the Narrator does
>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> totally perform as it was advertised.  For example, in a press
>>>>>>>> release
>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> received as part of a mass email from a consumer organization,
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>> states
>>>>>>> in one of the paragraphs as follows:  "With speech turned on,
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>> radio
>>>>>>> will announce the artist and song, and will show and announce
>>>>>>> visual
>>>>
>>>>>>> images as well."  This is not true.  Though the Narrator may
>>>>>>> display
>>>>
>>>>>>> artist and song titles on the screen if you happen to find an
>>>>>> HD
>>>>>>> radio station that provides that service, you won't hear it in
>>>>>>> voice
>>>>>> mode.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If a blind person hopes to use the menu or bookmark buttons to
>>>>>> navigate
>>>>>>>> the radio in voice mode, think again.  Those two features are
>>>>>>>> for just
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> sighted.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Although the Narrator comes with an audio CD instruction
>>>>>>>> manual, which
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> most people may feel is what you should read in order to use
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>> product,
>>>>>>>> the only section of the CD that benefits the blind is track 12.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you feel that locating HD radio stations is difficult with
>>>>>>>> the Narrator, well, it's just as tough to tune in a regular
>> A.M.
>>>> station.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>> Narrator does not come with a normal telescopic antenna which
>>>>>>>> you can
>>>>>>> rotate.  It comes with two plastic shoelace Y-shaped antennas
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> have to plug into two different adaptors on the back of the
>>>>>>> radio, and
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> even after you plug them in, you have to swing the antennas
>>>>>>> around, especially the A.M. one, in order to pick up a station
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>> may
>>>>>>> be as close as 25 miles away.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have one more side note.  Although Best Buy uses the Insignia
>>
>>>>>>>> label
>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> the Narrator as well as other products, a representative from
>>>>>>>> Insignia
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> told me that the company had nothing to do with manufacturing
>>>>>>> the Narrator.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, if you are blind and are satisfied with setting the clock
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>> alarm on
>>>>>>>> your own, finding and presetting radio stations and tuning into
>>>>>> certain
>>>>>>>> frequencies, then you will like the Narrator.  But do not
>>>>>>>> expect it
>>>>
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> be the miracle radio that's being advertised, because it isn't.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gerald
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>> teve
>>>>>>>> .ja
>>>>>> cobson%40visi.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> lies
>>>>>> hir
>>>>>> l%40cox.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>> bar
>>>>>> acco%40va.gov
>>>>>>
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>>>>>> ltai
>>>>>> n%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Christopher (CJ)
>>>>> chaltain at Gmail
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> rdue
>>>>> 3%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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>> Electronics-talk:
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>>> %40shellworld.net
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> Hardware eventually fails; software eventually works, no amount of band
>> width can fix poor design
>>
>> Jude <jdashiel-at-shellworld-dot-net>
>> <http://www.shellworld.net/~jdashiel/nj.html>
>>
>>
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>
> -- 
> Christopher (CJ)
> chaltain at Gmail
>
>
>
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