[Electronics-Talk] How many accessible pedestrian signals do you have in your city?

Christopher Chaltain chaltain at gmail.com
Thu Jan 11 00:44:15 UTC 2018


I get that an APS could be a distraction if it blocks traffic noise, but 
as someone else has said, I live on a very quiet street with almost no 
traffic, and I need to cross a very busy street. It can be very 
challenging to know when I have the light since there's no cross traffic 
and if an earlier light has held up the traffic on the busy street then 
I also don't have a car idling at the light to go by. A quiet APS in 
these situations would be useful.


I agree a smart phone app shouldn't be the only solution, because not 
every blind pedestrian will have a smart phone, but that doesn't mean 
there can't be smart phone apps for those blind smart phone users out there.


On 01/10/2018 02:07 PM, Andy Baracco via Electronics-Talk wrote:
> There are many configurations for APS, including the familiar chirp 
> and coocoo, talking, vibrating, and something that sounds kind of like 
> a machine gun, but it is not loud, in fact you have to be standing 
> next to the pole to hear it. It should be noted that these devices 
> only tell you when the light is green. You still need to have 
> sufficient mobility skills to cross the street safely.
>
> Andy
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim McCarthy via Electronics-Talk" 
> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
> To: "'Discussion of accessible home electronics and appliances'" 
> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: "Jim McCarthy" <jmccarthy at mdtap.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 7:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [Electronics-Talk] How many accessible pedestrian signals 
> do you have in your city?
>
>
>> So Jim, following up on your point, I once found myself in a meeting 
>> with
>> advocates for these signals. I stated that we had one in Baltimore that
>> really was very loud and that even for the blind who are to benefit 
>> from it,
>> it really is distracting. The response I got was that I was right 
>> about that
>> one but that it clearly had been installed incorrectly. Well, they 
>> are not
>> going to reinstall it and the installers are not experts in 
>> blindness, blind
>> people or any of the rest of it. In the best practices for installation,
>> many of the APS units will have an arrow that vibrates, one for each 
>> street
>> served by the APS. Best practices are that these point directly 
>> across the
>> street for which it serves. It often has been my experience though 
>> that they
>> are not perfectly aligned so one needs to use traffic alignment 
>> skills to
>> achieve this purpose. Also, Dave's point always needs to be stressed. 
>> Where
>> the signals exist, they are not to tell one when it is safe to cross; 
>> they
>> certainly don't assure a safe crossing either. All they can do is 
>> tell the
>> pedestrian that the cycle has reached the point when it is 
>> appropriate to
>> cross. A blind traveler still needs to use the traffic monitoring 
>> skills she
>> has prior to crossing.
>> Jim
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Electronics-Talk [mailto:electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Jim Barbour via Electronics-Talk
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 9:48 AM
>> To: Discussion of accessible home electronics and appliances
>> Cc: Jim Barbour
>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-Talk] How many accessible pedestrian 
>> signals do
>> you have in your city?
>>
>> I would add that many blind pedestrians feel hampered, not helped, but
>> APSes.  It masks the traffic noise that is the really reliable way to
>> determine when it is safe to cross the street.
>>
>> The appeal of an app is that you can easily decide when you want to 
>> hear the
>> status of the light, and when you want to hear the traffic noise.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 02:42:53PM +0000, Andrews, David B (DEED) via
>> Electronics-Talk wrote:
>>> An APS "never" tells you when it is "safe" to cross an intersection. It
>> can only tell you the state of the signals.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> David Andrews | Chief Technology Officer Minnesota Department of
>>> Employment and Economic Development State Services for the Blind
>>> 2200 University Ave West, Suite 240, St. Paul MN 55114
>>> Direct: 651-539-2294
>>> Web | Twitter | Facebook
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Electronics-Talk [mailto:electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Gerald Levy via Electronics-Talk
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 7:59 AM
>>> To: Discussion of accessible home electronics and appliances
>>> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Gerald Levy <bwaylimited at verizon.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-Talk] How many accessible pedestrian 
>>> signals do
>> you have in your city?
>>>
>>>
>>> But what about the majority of blind pedestrians who do not own smart
>> phones?  How would they benefit from an app that could alert a smart 
>> phone
>> user when it is safe to cross an intersection, even if such an app could
>> even be developed in the first place?  The traffic signal would still 
>> need
>> an audible alert so that it would benefit all blind pedestrians and 
>> not just
>> those with smart phones in order to comply with the ADA, regardless 
>> of the
>> expense to the municipality.
>>>
>>> Gerald
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Tracy Carcione via Electronics-Talk
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 8:29 AM
>>> To: 'Discussion of accessible home electronics and appliances'
>>> Cc: Tracy Carcione
>>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-Talk] How many accessible pedestrian 
>>> signals do
>> you have in your city?
>>>
>>> Hi Jim.
>>> I also live on a quieter street that crosses a very busy one, and I had
>> the exact problem you describe--figuring out a lull in traffic from 
>> when I
>> had the light.  It's also an offset intersection, with a lot of turning
>> traffic.
>>> As I said, I had to fight hard to get an APS there, but, every time 
>>> I was
>> thinking of giving up, I'd misjudge the light, and I'd grit my teeth 
>> and go
>> back to the battle.  I should not have to risk my life, literally, to 
>> cross
>> the street.  Well, no more than anyone else does. To heck with what 
>> it cost
>> the county.  I pay taxes, and my life has value in itself.
>>>
>>> I have been wondering for years if it would be practical to develop a
>> smart phone app that would say when the walk sign was on.  It would 
>> have to
>> be absolutely real-time, and reliable.  But, if it could be done, it 
>> ought
>> to be a lot cheaper than APS's are now. And maybe there's a way to 
>> make it
>> work with any traffic light one encounters.  Do you think such a 
>> thing could
>> work?
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Electronics-Talk [mailto:electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Jim McCarthy via Electronics-Talk
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2018 2:28 PM
>>> To: 'Discussion of accessible home electronics and appliances'
>>> Cc: Jim McCarthy
>>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-Talk] How many accessible pedestrian 
>>> signals do
>> you have in your city?
>>>
>>> Tracy,
>>> I do think that the end point is what you suggest, to have one at every
>> intersection that has a traffic light. When there is new development, 
>> they
>> should be put in at the get go as you suggest they are. In other 
>> cases, I do
>> think the more complicated intersections should be first; I think 
>> that if a
>> traffic light needs repair or replacement, an accessible signal 
>> should take
>> its place; and finally, someday there will be accessible signals at 
>> every
>> intersection. I did not always think that it needed to be an equality 
>> thing
>> but that is the way I am headed now also. I live on a north south street
>> that is not very busy. It is a plus intersection though so my street 
>> crosses
>> a very busy street, one of the more busy in that part of the city and 
>> one
>> that crosses the entire city toward its north end. The busy street is 
>> not
>> even all that wide so the intersection is not geometrically 
>> complicated. It
>> does not have an audible signal but might benefit from one. The 
>> reason is
>> that there is often not traffic on my street crossing. There are some 
>> gaps
>> on the busy street but a blind travelers is left guessing, "is there 
>> a gap
>> because the light is favorable?" Perhaps, it is just a traffic lag 
>> and one
>> may need to race across. Having an audible traffic signal would take 
>> away
>> the guess work. Is this the most important intersection in the city 
>> for a
>> signal? Probably not but there would be benefit in having one. I have 
>> lived
>> in that neighborhood for many years and feel safe crossing so I have not
>> asked for this yet.
>>> Jim
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Electronics-Talk [mailto:electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Tracy Carcione via Electronics-Talk
>>> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2018 11:14 AM
>>> To: 'Discussion of accessible home electronics and appliances'
>>> Cc: Tracy Carcione
>>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-Talk] How many accessible pedestrian 
>>> signals do
>> you have in your city?
>>>
>>> Thanks Jim.  I hadn't thought much about what you bring up. What 
>>> criteria
>> do you think they should use?  Put in an accessible signal at the most
>> complicated intersections, and, when those are covered, move on to less
>> complicated ones?  Should the goal be to have an accessible signal 
>> wherever
>> there is a crossing signal?  I didn't used to think so, but now I'm 
>> starting
>> to think that I have the same right to know the status of the light 
>> as my
>> sighted neighbors have.
>>>
>>> I had to fight tooth and claw to get the first signal in my county.  
>>> I had
>> to get my state assemblywoman involved, and threaten the county with 
>> an ADA
>> lawsuit.  But now, a few years later, they have put in 2 more signals 
>> on the
>> main drag all on their own.  They seem to be putting them where there 
>> is new
>> development--new businesses going in.  I'm not sure what their 
>> criteria are,
>> but I am glad to have them.
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Electronics-Talk [mailto:electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Jim McCarthy via Electronics-Talk
>>> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2018 10:23 AM
>>> To: 'Discussion of accessible home electronics and appliances'
>>> Cc: Jim McCarthy
>>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-Talk] How many accessible pedestrian 
>>> signals do
>> you have in your city?
>>>
>>> I have been reading this thread with some interest. It seems to me that
>> much of the time, the answer will be like Mike has said here that 
>> there is
>> some certain number in his area and he knows this because he asked 
>> for and
>> got their installation. What I have not noticed in the thread is a 
>> reason
>> for knowing how many there are. This is information a city 
>> transportation or
>> traffic department probably has but I think the number a jurisdiction 
>> has
>> does not matter very much. The trend of installation is more 
>> important to
>> indicate progress in the installation. It still bothers me that many
>> jurisdictions react as Fort Collins did for Mike, that is that they 
>> install
>> them in areas that blind people frequent or only when a blind person or
>> enough of us make the request. The result is that in many of the places
>> these are installed, they do not offer actual assistance to blind 
>> travelers
>> and in places where they would offer that help, they are not installed
>> because there is not an entity expected to be frequented by people 
>> who are
>>> blind or because no requests have been made.    I suppose though 
>>> that if
>> the
>>> trigger for installation is that there has been a request, I am glad 
>>> Fort
>> Collins has responded as they have. In many instances, the answer is 
>> that
>> they are expensive so we can't or won't install. To me the right 
>> approach is
>> to have as a part of a long term transportation plan the goal of 
>> installing
>> some number per year. It also strikes me as best to rank 
>> intersections based
>> on criteria so that the really complicated ones receive the devices 
>> also.
>>> Jim McCarthy
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Electronics-Talk [mailto:electronics-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Mike Sedmak via Electronics-Talk
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 5:25 PM
>>> To: Discussion of accessible home electronics and appliances
>>> Cc: Mike Sedmak
>>> Subject: Re: [Electronics-Talk] How many accessible pedestrian 
>>> signals do
>> you have in your city?
>>>
>>> We have five in my corner of Fort Collins, CO.  I called the city 
>>> traffic
>> operations engineer and asked him to install them on all the crossings I
>> frequent.  I would recommend asking for them in your area if you like 
>> them.
>>>
>>>
>>> Our city ops said they are relatively expensive, so they only 
>>> install them
>> when requested.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone, please forgive the typos.
>>>
>>> > On Jan 4, 2018, at 1:19 PM, Andy Baracco via Electronics-Talk
>>> <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Interestingly enough, I don't think that we have that many in the
>>> > entire
>>> city of Los Angeles.
>>> >
>>> > Andy
>>> >
>>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike via Electronics-Talk"
>>> > <electronics-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> > To: <Electronics-Talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> > Cc: "Mike" <mrmikie273 at gmail.com>
>>> > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2018 2:29 AM
>>> > Subject: [Electronics-Talk] How many accessible pedestrian signals
>>> > do you
>>> have in your city?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> How many accessible pedestrian signals do you have in your city or
>>> >> area? In the greater Daytona Beach Florida we now have 32 of them.
>>> >>
>>> >> Thank you
>>> >>
>>> >> Mike
>>> >>
>>>
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-- 
Christopher (CJ)
Chaltain at Gmail





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