[Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.

Julie C. Vogt jcvogt at pressenter.com
Mon Nov 10 21:04:28 UTC 2008 

It can be healed.  I know a homosexual man who confessed his sin and 
received Christ and has been married for a good 30 years now.  He and his 
wife live in Seattle and I remember when I played for their wedding when 
they got married.  If you have had a "sex change" operation of some kind, 
it's going to still physically be a reminder to you and others, but God does 
change a heart, just like a heart of a murderer or those in rebellion or 
anything else.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 6:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.


> That's weird.  I know that St. Paul preaches against group sex and
> other kinds of weird forms of sex acts, but Jesus not hanging out with
> or healing homosexuals is just odd.  If homosexuality is seen as a sin
> in the Bible, why isn't it clearly stated that it can be healed?  Both
> Protestants and Conservative Catholics feel this way, but I don't
> think that the homosexual attractions my friends experiece can be
> healed.
> Beth
>
> On 11/10/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>> Yes, and that by grace we are saved.  God's grace is truly amazing, isn't
>> it?
>>
>>
>> +-+-+-
>>
>>    There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither 
>> is
>> there any rock like our God.
>>  1 Samuel 2:2
>> ~~~
>>
>> Alan D Wheeler
>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>> Skype: redwheel1
>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>> www.theqonline.net
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Corey Cook" <ccook01 at knology.net>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
>>
>>
>>> The great part is Paul says that that was what we were before we were
>>> forgiven.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "BMW" <lynnwhite51 at sbcglobal.net>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:21 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
>>>
>>>
>>>> well, Beth, your view goes against the old and new Testament.  Nobody 
>>>> is
>>>> being a bigot or anything like that.
>>>>
>>>> What do you do with the verses that speak against adultery, 
>>>> drunkardness,
>>>>
>>>> slanderers, fornicators?  Paul says that all of have fit into one of
>>>> these
>>>> categories before we were forgiven.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:53 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] More about homosexuality.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Allan, this article is severely biased and is hurtful to homosexual
>>>>> friends of mine.  Thank God they didn't read this.  To be honest, I
>>>>> love my friends, all my friends heterosexual and homosexual.  Every
>>>>> kid has the right to two loving parents, but not necessarily a mom and
>>>>> a dad.  Gay couples and lesbian couples are still adoptable couples.
>>>>> I've seen a lesbian couple that adopted two Cree First Nations
>>>>> children.  I saw a gay couple adopt special needs twins who had
>>>>> addiction problems.  This country needs to be more progressive and
>>>>> stop attacking homosexuals because they are homosexuals.  Before you
>>>>> know it, Allan, this country will put blind and visually impaired
>>>>> people as well as cognitively disabled people in their places: along
>>>>> with the homosexuals, below sighted and heterosexual people.  Before
>>>>> you know it, Allan, African Americans will be kicked out of office and
>>>>> there will be an assassination attempt on Barack Obama, who I hope
>>>>> will reign for eight long and healthy years.  Please watch what you're
>>>>> saying!  We're all Christians on this list!  Can't we accept others'
>>>>> beliefs and opinions here?  I'm not trying to be psychic and prophetic
>>>>> here, but please understand that I am very concerned that this nation
>>>>> is going to fall down like Rome did and we won't have a very healthy
>>>>> end if you know what I mean.  And not everybody believes in God.  And
>>>>> God loves everybody, and even though it is written that homosexuality
>>>>> is a sin, attacking homosexuals who are not atracted and refuse to be
>>>>> attracted to the opposite sex is wrong.  We cannot an will not attack
>>>>> others because they are a different brand of homo sapiens sapiens.
>>>>> Beth
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/9/08, Alan Wheeler <awheeler at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>> I went to www.biblegateway.com to see what I could find about
>>>>>> homosexuality
>>>>>> and the bible.  This was among the resources.  So, again I say, and
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> my last comment on the subject, if you disagree that marriage is only
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> men and women, then your argument is with God.  It's in His book.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/gay-rights#marriage
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Sanctity of Marriage
>>>>>> In recent years, the homosexual movement has centered on giving
>>>>>> marriage-like benefits to gay couples. Many in the culture have
>>>>>> mistakenly
>>>>>> concluded that marriage is merely an institution for the convenience 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> adults. In actuality, marriage is the bedrock institution for culture
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> sustain itself through having and nurturing children. There are
>>>>>> complementary aspects to a man and woman that are important to the
>>>>>> instutution of marriage which go beyond the obvious physical
>>>>>> attributes.
>>>>>> There are things that a man needs that can only be provided by a 
>>>>>> woman,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> vice versa.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These complementary aspects are important to the relationship of the
>>>>>> couple
>>>>>> itself, as well as to the children. One does not have to appeal to
>>>>>> religion
>>>>>> to instinctively understand this. Yet statistics verify the structure
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> traditional family as the approach to raising children that gives the
>>>>>> best
>>>>>> measurable results. The overwhelming body of social science research
>>>>>> agrees
>>>>>> that children do best when raised in homes with married, opposite-sex
>>>>>> parents. Every child has the right to both a mom and a dad.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yet we cannot divorce the institution of marriage from its 
>>>>>> theological
>>>>>> roots. We acknowledge that marriage is an institution given by God
>>>>>> (Genesis
>>>>>> 2:24). The Creator of the Universe established the relationship 
>>>>>> between
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> man and a woman, thus it is a divine institution, not a human one. To
>>>>>> confer
>>>>>> marriage-like rights to gays is not the prerogative of people 
>>>>>> (Matthew
>>>>>> 19:6). (This includes civil unions or domestic partnerships, as they
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> merely marriage by other names.) Defining marriage is the prerogative
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> God. Whatever may tend to undermine the institution of marriage would
>>>>>> also
>>>>>> undermine the authority of God, as well as hurt society.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Liberals may argue, "Why should we arbitrarily select only 
>>>>>> heterosexual
>>>>>> couples for marriage? What can it hurt if two homosexuals want to
>>>>>> marry?"
>>>>>> The answer is surprisingly simple. The institution of marriage 
>>>>>> between
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> man a woman is not, in fact, arbitrary. It's purpose is clear and of
>>>>>> utmost
>>>>>> importance to society.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David Orland in an article entitled "The Deceit of Gay Marriage" puts
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> very well. He says:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   To justify giving privileges or exemptions or subsidies to some
>>>>>> particular
>>>>>> group in society, the benefit of doing so for society at large must
>>>>>> first be
>>>>>> shown. With heterosexual marriage, the case is clear enough.
>>>>>> Heterosexual
>>>>>> marriage is a matter of genuine social interest because the family is
>>>>>> essential to society's reproduction. The crux of my argument, in 
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> words, was that married couples receive the benefits they do, not
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> the state is interested in promoting romantic love, or because the
>>>>>> Bible
>>>>>> says so or because of the influence of special interest groups but
>>>>>> rather
>>>>>> because the next generation is something that is and should be of
>>>>>> interest
>>>>>> to all of us. And, by definition, this is not a case that can be made
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> homosexual unions. To that degree, the attempt to turn the question 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> domestic partnership into a debate about fairness falls flat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   The more persistent supporters of domestic partnership will of 
>>>>>> course
>>>>>> respond to this argument by pointing to the case in which homosexual
>>>>>> partners adopt children or, in the case of lesbians, undergo 
>>>>>> artificial
>>>>>> insemination. The intention here is to show that the nuclear family 
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> found
>>>>>> even among homosexual couples and that, to that extent, homosexual
>>>>>> unions do
>>>>>> indeed meet the same criterion of social interest as heterosexual 
>>>>>> ones
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> thus should be granted legal status. It is a weak argument and one 
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> ultimately back-fires on those who employ it. This is for two 
>>>>>> reasons:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   First, adoption by homosexual couples is still exceedingly rare and
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> law-though many are surprised to learn this-is aimed at the general
>>>>>> case. To
>>>>>> confer legal benefits on the entire class of would-be homosexual
>>>>>> spouses
>>>>>> just because some very small minority of this class approximates the
>>>>>> pattern
>>>>>> of the nuclear family would be a bit like admitting all applicants to 
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> select university on the grounds that a few of them had been shown to
>>>>>> meet
>>>>>> the entrance requirements.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Second, the right of this small minority to the benefits of 
>>>>>> marriage
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> dubious in the extreme. Homosexual "families" of whatever type are
>>>>>> always
>>>>>> and necessarily parasitic on heterosexual ones.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Every child has the right to a mom and a dad. See 5 Reasons Why
>>>>>> Same-Sex
>>>>>> Marriage Harms Children.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But homosexuals not only want fair treatment, they are pushing for
>>>>>> "Super
>>>>>> Rights." According the Paul Cameron of the Family Research Institute:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   "Every member of society has a duty to contribute to the
>>>>>> commonwealth.
>>>>>> Yet
>>>>>> the empirical evidence indicates that those who engage in 
>>>>>> homosexuality
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1)
>>>>>> contribute less and cost more in goods and services, 2)
>>>>>> disproportionately
>>>>>> disrupt social functioning, and 3) have few children while being more
>>>>>> apt to
>>>>>> harm them. Thus, homosexual practioners not only fail to 'pay for 
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> keep,' but by their negative influence on children, cloud society's
>>>>>> future.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Those who engage in homosexuality seek what they say are 'gay
>>>>>> rights."
>>>>>> In
>>>>>> reality, they are demanding Super Rights. Super Rights are those
>>>>>> privileges
>>>>>> that allow one to ovverride the inalienable rights of other citizens,
>>>>>> such
>>>>>> as freedom of speech and association. These Super Rights-which are
>>>>>> conferred
>>>>>> by 'non-discrimination,' 'hate crime,' and 'hate speech' laws-allow
>>>>>> homosexuals, if they so choose, to endanger or punish those who would
>>>>>> exercise their associational rights to avoid them or protect their
>>>>>> children
>>>>>> from them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   As an example, empirical studies to date indicate that a male 
>>>>>> teacher
>>>>>>
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> practices homosexuality is the most likely kind of teacher to 
>>>>>> sexually
>>>>>> molest students. A principal knowing this may not want to hire a
>>>>>> teacher
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> declares his homosexual interests. But if that teacher wants the job,
>>>>>> his
>>>>>> Super Rights trump the associational rights of the principal as well 
>>>>>> as
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> right of students not to experience extra risk (especially since 
>>>>>> safety
>>>>>>
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> part of their right to life). Parents renting out one side of their
>>>>>> duplex
>>>>>> may not want to place their children at risk by renting to a gay
>>>>>> couple.
>>>>>> But
>>>>>> if-even on a whim - the homosexuals want the duplex, their Super 
>>>>>> Rights
>>>>>> trump the property and associational rights of the parents as well as
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> children's right not to be exposed to potential molestation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   The Super Rights of homosexual practitioners also squelch the right
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> others to freedom of speech. If a broadcaster opines that homosexual
>>>>>> sex
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> dangerous, but a homosexual finds such speech 'offensive,' his Super
>>>>>> Rights
>>>>>> trump the broadcaster's freedom of speech and the broadcaster may be
>>>>>> fined
>>>>>> or imprisoned."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The concept of hate crimes seems particularly reprehensible. If one 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> (heterosexual) loved ones is the object of a despicable crime, the
>>>>>> perpetrator would receive a lesser punishment than someone who
>>>>>> committed
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> same act against someone who practices homosexual sex!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +-+-+-
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    He has made clear to you, O man, what is good; and what is desired
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> you by the Lord; only doing what is
>>>>>>  right, and loving mercy, and walking without pride before your God.
>>>>>> Micah
>>>>>> 6:8
>>>>>> ~~~
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alan D Wheeler
>>>>>> awheeler at neb.rr.com
>>>>>> IM me at: outlaw-cowboy at live.com
>>>>>> Skype: redwheel1
>>>>>> Check me out on the Q, Fridays from 10 AM to 1 PM eastern time at
>>>>>> www.theqonline.net
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Corey Cook
>>>
>>>
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>>
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