[Faith-talk] non-christians on this list

Thu Apr 28 19:36:51 UTC 2011

Jorge,
  I'm not really sure we disagree.  Scripture states, pretty clearly,
that evil can not enter in to God's kingdom.  All I was saying was
that we all start out as children of God, and those good
non-christians (I know quite a few who I think fit in that category),
will have a chance to accept Christ later, after life.
  Allen and Jeanette,
  I'll defer to you on this one.  But I would also submit (and I know
many good Christians disagree), that the Bible is not the only
authoritative source of belief.  Consider, for instance, the concept
of the Trinity.  While believed by most Christians to be authoritative
(look at the Nicean and Athenasian creeds), it is never _explicitly_
stated in holy rit.  We as Mormons do believe the Bible is not the
only scripture and our cannon is open to what we call modern
revelation, and that is one of those significant theological
differences I mentioned earlier.  Nevertheless, I've heard many
Christians (catholic and protestant) who hold to the view that those
who never knew of Christ, or didn't accept him as savior in this life,
aren't necessarily damned to burn in hell forever.
  To me, and I'm really not trying to be argumentative here but I feel
rather strongly about this, it would be really strange for God to damn
many good, great people to eternal torment and agony, just because
they were not explicitly Christian in mortality.  I know many
professed Christians who are far, far less charitable and loving and
moral than some Atheists I'm friends with.  I know of Muslims whose
devotion to God puts many alleged Christians to shame.  I think, as is
stated in First Samuel, God looks not on the outward appearance but
judges the heart.  While I'm not denying that Jesus is the only way to
salvation, I do think it's reasonable for a fair, just God to give
every person the sincere chance to understand Christ.  Many, maybe
even the majority of humans throughout history never got that chance
during mortal life.
  God bless,
Kirt

On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
> Kirt:
> I agree with your view,
> my difference being that although all are children of God,
> only those who do good shall be saved, weather they have a religion or not.
>
> And, quick FYI, apparently I was just reading that this theory has been
> written by
> Pope Benedict the 16th, though I can't remember his name prior to this.
>
> This was also included in the Second Vatican of the Catholic church,
> and if anyone's interested in research on this topic by the way,
> I've found Bookshare to be a surprisingly reliable source.
>
> Jorge
> On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:45 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>
>> Jorge,
>>  My church teaches that all humans are children of God.  Christians,
>> Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Wiccans, Atheists,
>> Satanists, murderers, rapists, everyone is literally a spirit child of
>> god.
>>  Also, you might be interested in the idea of "anonimous
>> christianity."  I'm not going to do it justice, but it was an idea
>> advanced by a certain catholic theologian (I can't recall the name)
>> that basically all people living christlike lives have access to
>> Christ's grace, though they don't know it yet.  As a Mormon, a central
>> part of my faith is that, some day, either in this life or the next,
>> all people will have the chance to hear the gospel of Christ.  Were
>> this not true, God would not be a fair and just God because,
>> throughout the ages, there have been billions of people who literally
>> never even heard of Jesus Christ.  I can't believe in a God who would
>> damn someone merely because they were never exposed to Christ in
>> mortal life, or because they chose to live by their original faith
>> instead, without really understanding what Christ offers.  So, I
>> believe that heaven will be full of Mormons and Catholics and Muslims
>> and HIndus and all manner of religions...at least, full of people who
>> believed all manner of religions while living here on earth, they will
>> all have accepted Christ as savior and lived his commandments to the
>> best of their abilities before being saved, though.  I'm just
>> rambling...but basically I believe that, just because someone dies
>> without faith in Christ, I don't believe they are ultimately condemned
>> to hell unless they reject Christ later.
>>  Just my thoughts.  I'd welcome discussion or civilized debate.
>>  Best,
>> Kirt
>>
>> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hello Kirt:
>>> I agree with you completely.
>>>
>>> In fact, if you look at the ancient documents and text,
>>> you will see that Christians started out as one group.
>>> Then for various reasons,
>>> divided,
>>> so in a way, we are both following the original tradition.
>>> But,
>>> that brings me to my point.
>>> What do we, as Christians, consider acceptable behavior for "children of
>>> God?"
>>>
>>> I understand that our Christianity stems from our belief in Jesus Christ.
>>>
>>> But then  how do we define "children of God?"
>>> Would we consider Muslims as "children of God", despite their views on
>>> Jesus Christ being different then ours?
>>>
>>> Or do we also define "Children Of God" how we define "Christian?"
>>>
>>> Just food for thought.
>>>
>>>
>>> Jorge
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear list,
>>>> I feel like I need to respond to this thread.  Please understand I'm
>>>> not trying to spark controversy, I don't intend to debate anyone here,
>>>> and I'm not trying to impose my own faith on anyone.  But, with that
>>>> disclaimer out of the way, I want to answer one point that was made
>>>> earlier on this thread.
>>>> 	John, you said some of your LDS (Mormon) friends do not identify
>>>> themselves as Christian.  I think I understand why, although I
>>>> whole-heartedly proclaim myself a Christian.  It ultimately boils down
>>>> to your definition of a Christian.  If the only Christians are those
>>>> who worship the Trinity as God, and confess the Nycene creed, then I
>>>> suppose we Mormons aren't Christians.  But, by that definition, you're
>>>> excluding some of the most Christian people among us.  Consider Joshua
>>>> Lester, a oneness pentecostal who does not believe in the Trinity.
>>>> Would anyone here, on this list, seriously claim he isn't a Christian?
>>>> His understanding of God as one person is as different from the
>>>> traditional Trinity as my understanding of God as three separate,
>>>> distinctive personages who are one in purpose rather than substance.
>>>> Yet I have seen his denomination attacked and criticized in the world
>>>> for being "unChristian", just as mine has been.
>>>> 	So this brings me to my next point.  If Christians aren't exclusively
>>>> Trinitarians, what defines a Christian?  To me, it's obvious.  Anyone
>>>> who accepts Christ as lord and savior and relies exclusively upon him
>>>> as the only means of salvation is a Christian.  For us as Mormons
>>>> Jesus is not just a good moral guide for an excelent life.  He isn't
>>>> just an inspired teacher or prophet- he is a member of the godhead,
>>>> our redemer and, ultimately, the only true savior for humankind.
>>>> Without Christ we are doomed and lost, we need his atoning sacrifice
>>>> in our lives both to purify us now and cleanse us for eternity.  In my
>>>> book, if you agree with that, you're a Christian.  So despite the
>>>> numerous and significant theological differences between Catholics and
>>>> Protestants and Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals and Orthadox
>>>> Christians, we all have that common ground.  Are Mormons Christian?
>>>> Are Oneness pentecostals Christian?  I answer, emphatically, "yes!"
>>>> Warmest regards,
>>>> Kirt
>>>>
>>>> On 4/22/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>
>>>>> This happens sometimes, and I've known people to be really embarrassed
>>>>> at some of the things they said. However, in this case there is no need
>>>>> for embarrassment. i felt that the information I gave in my reply would
>>>>> be good for the whole list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Blessed Easter,
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:44:57PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>> o> Woops...I sent a message thinking it would go just to John, but it
>>>>>> went to the whole list.  My sincere appologies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/22/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>> I do believe you are right in the divisions.
>>>>>>> I myself am a Catholic, but have taken the time to study the 2 other
>>>>>>> major
>>>>>>> religions of the world (Judaism and Islam), and we're currently
>>>>>>> studying
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> reformation in school.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> According to my understanding, the majesterium mandated at that time
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> all bibles bee in Latin, therefore making it impossible for the
>>>>>>> "common
>>>>>>> people" to read,
>>>>>>> while the protestants (please correct me if I'm wrong) were the first
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> start reading the bible in common languages, believing that the bible
>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>> be read and understood by each and every believer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Am I correct?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>> I never replied to your message earlier.  Thanks for your answers
>>>>>>>> about the Majesterium and Tradition.  So, if I'm understanding
>>>>>>>> right,
>>>>>>>> it is your belief that the majesterium/teaching arm of the Roman
>>>>>>>> Catholic church is simply clarifying the revelation already given.
>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>> other words, Jesus was and the Bible was the complete Revelation of
>>>>>>>> God.  If I'm understanding right, the biggest disagreement between
>>>>>>>> Catholics and Protestants is a matter of interpretation of the
>>>>>>>> Bible.
>>>>>>>> For you, am I right in saying the interpretation provided by
>>>>>>>> tradition/majesterium is authoritativ and the only "correct" way to
>>>>>>>> look at scripture, while in Protestant Christianity it is more open
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> the reader's own interpretation?  I know that's a huge
>>>>>>>> generalization,
>>>>>>>> but would you say I'm right there?
>>>>>>>> Anyways...I'm also curious about another statement you made.  You
>>>>>>>> said something to the effect of believing Joseph Smith's vissions
>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>> genuine, but not valid.  So...for you, as a Catholic, do you think
>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>> was misguided?  Partially inspired but ultimately mistaken in taking
>>>>>>>> it too far?  Inspired by the devil?  I won't get offended, I want
>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>> honest opinion and I'm not going to take it personally.
>>>>>>>> And, religious dialogue is definitely important...I'd say escential.
>>>>>>>> I think there's much to learn from all religions, and personally I'm
>>>>>>>> convinced God has inspired them all.  That doesn't mean I believe
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> everything every faith claims, but I see the hand of God throughout
>>>>>>>> the religious world.
>>>>>>>> I have one other question for you.  Are you familiar with the idea
>>>>>>>> of anonimous Christianity?  If so, what are your thoughts on it?
>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 4/21/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I'm definitely Christian, but I'm all for interrelitious dialog. In
>>>>>>>>> fact, I think that is part of my particular work of evangelization.
>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>> you go to my website, http://www.godtouches.org you will see that
>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>> motto is "peace, love, service". I think that my work of
>>>>>>>>> evangelization
>>>>>>>>> is to spread these attitudes of Christ even in the secular world.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 09:25:24PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>> I very much enjoy all the devotionals and prayer requests and
>>>>>>>>>> discussions on here.  I'm pretty sure it's one of the few
>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile
>>>>>>>>>> distractions in life.  But I am curious, and I definitely don't
>>>>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>>>> to offend, if there are any non-christian regular readers of this
>>>>>>>>>> mailinglist?  I don't mean to procelyte, and I don't want this
>>>>>>>>>> thread
>>>>>>>>>> to turn into an overblown theological debate, but I'm very
>>>>>>>>>> interested
>>>>>>>>>> in talking with and learning from people from other faiths.  If
>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>> you, and you wouldn't mind talking, would you please email me
>>>>>>>>>> off-list?  I won't procelyte- I won't try to baptize you or
>>>>>>>>>> anything.
>>>>>>>>>> I just want a friendly dialogue.
>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>
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