[Faith-talk] non-christians on this list

Jeanette nettiecosp at yahoo.com
Fri Apr 29 05:46:21 UTC 2011 

the Bible is the only Word of God at least that is what most Christians i 
know believe. the other writings are of man.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list


> Jorge,
>  I'm not really sure we disagree.  Scripture states, pretty clearly,
> that evil can not enter in to God's kingdom.  All I was saying was
> that we all start out as children of God, and those good
> non-christians (I know quite a few who I think fit in that category),
> will have a chance to accept Christ later, after life.
>  Allen and Jeanette,
>  I'll defer to you on this one.  But I would also submit (and I know
> many good Christians disagree), that the Bible is not the only
> authoritative source of belief.  Consider, for instance, the concept
> of the Trinity.  While believed by most Christians to be authoritative
> (look at the Nicean and Athenasian creeds), it is never _explicitly_
> stated in holy rit.  We as Mormons do believe the Bible is not the
> only scripture and our cannon is open to what we call modern
> revelation, and that is one of those significant theological
> differences I mentioned earlier.  Nevertheless, I've heard many
> Christians (catholic and protestant) who hold to the view that those
> who never knew of Christ, or didn't accept him as savior in this life,
> aren't necessarily damned to burn in hell forever.
>  To me, and I'm really not trying to be argumentative here but I feel
> rather strongly about this, it would be really strange for God to damn
> many good, great people to eternal torment and agony, just because
> they were not explicitly Christian in mortality.  I know many
> professed Christians who are far, far less charitable and loving and
> moral than some Atheists I'm friends with.  I know of Muslims whose
> devotion to God puts many alleged Christians to shame.  I think, as is
> stated in First Samuel, God looks not on the outward appearance but
> judges the heart.  While I'm not denying that Jesus is the only way to
> salvation, I do think it's reasonable for a fair, just God to give
> every person the sincere chance to understand Christ.  Many, maybe
> even the majority of humans throughout history never got that chance
> during mortal life.
>  God bless,
> Kirt
>
> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Kirt:
>> I agree with your view,
>> my difference being that although all are children of God,
>> only those who do good shall be saved, weather they have a religion or 
>> not.
>>
>> And, quick FYI, apparently I was just reading that this theory has been
>> written by
>> Pope Benedict the 16th, though I can't remember his name prior to this.
>>
>> This was also included in the Second Vatican of the Catholic church,
>> and if anyone's interested in research on this topic by the way,
>> I've found Bookshare to be a surprisingly reliable source.
>>
>> Jorge
>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:45 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>
>>> Jorge,
>>>  My church teaches that all humans are children of God.  Christians,
>>> Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Wiccans, Atheists,
>>> Satanists, murderers, rapists, everyone is literally a spirit child of
>>> god.
>>>  Also, you might be interested in the idea of "anonimous
>>> christianity."  I'm not going to do it justice, but it was an idea
>>> advanced by a certain catholic theologian (I can't recall the name)
>>> that basically all people living christlike lives have access to
>>> Christ's grace, though they don't know it yet.  As a Mormon, a central
>>> part of my faith is that, some day, either in this life or the next,
>>> all people will have the chance to hear the gospel of Christ.  Were
>>> this not true, God would not be a fair and just God because,
>>> throughout the ages, there have been billions of people who literally
>>> never even heard of Jesus Christ.  I can't believe in a God who would
>>> damn someone merely because they were never exposed to Christ in
>>> mortal life, or because they chose to live by their original faith
>>> instead, without really understanding what Christ offers.  So, I
>>> believe that heaven will be full of Mormons and Catholics and Muslims
>>> and HIndus and all manner of religions...at least, full of people who
>>> believed all manner of religions while living here on earth, they will
>>> all have accepted Christ as savior and lived his commandments to the
>>> best of their abilities before being saved, though.  I'm just
>>> rambling...but basically I believe that, just because someone dies
>>> without faith in Christ, I don't believe they are ultimately condemned
>>> to hell unless they reject Christ later.
>>>  Just my thoughts.  I'd welcome discussion or civilized debate.
>>>  Best,
>>> Kirt
>>>
>>> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hello Kirt:
>>>> I agree with you completely.
>>>>
>>>> In fact, if you look at the ancient documents and text,
>>>> you will see that Christians started out as one group.
>>>> Then for various reasons,
>>>> divided,
>>>> so in a way, we are both following the original tradition.
>>>> But,
>>>> that brings me to my point.
>>>> What do we, as Christians, consider acceptable behavior for "children 
>>>> of
>>>> God?"
>>>>
>>>> I understand that our Christianity stems from our belief in Jesus 
>>>> Christ.
>>>>
>>>> But then  how do we define "children of God?"
>>>> Would we consider Muslims as "children of God", despite their views on
>>>> Jesus Christ being different then ours?
>>>>
>>>> Or do we also define "Children Of God" how we define "Christian?"
>>>>
>>>> Just food for thought.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jorge
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>> I feel like I need to respond to this thread.  Please understand I'm
>>>>> not trying to spark controversy, I don't intend to debate anyone here,
>>>>> and I'm not trying to impose my own faith on anyone.  But, with that
>>>>> disclaimer out of the way, I want to answer one point that was made
>>>>> earlier on this thread.
>>>>> John, you said some of your LDS (Mormon) friends do not identify
>>>>> themselves as Christian.  I think I understand why, although I
>>>>> whole-heartedly proclaim myself a Christian.  It ultimately boils down
>>>>> to your definition of a Christian.  If the only Christians are those
>>>>> who worship the Trinity as God, and confess the Nycene creed, then I
>>>>> suppose we Mormons aren't Christians.  But, by that definition, you're
>>>>> excluding some of the most Christian people among us.  Consider Joshua
>>>>> Lester, a oneness pentecostal who does not believe in the Trinity.
>>>>> Would anyone here, on this list, seriously claim he isn't a Christian?
>>>>> His understanding of God as one person is as different from the
>>>>> traditional Trinity as my understanding of God as three separate,
>>>>> distinctive personages who are one in purpose rather than substance.
>>>>> Yet I have seen his denomination attacked and criticized in the world
>>>>> for being "unChristian", just as mine has been.
>>>>> So this brings me to my next point.  If Christians aren't exclusively
>>>>> Trinitarians, what defines a Christian?  To me, it's obvious.  Anyone
>>>>> who accepts Christ as lord and savior and relies exclusively upon him
>>>>> as the only means of salvation is a Christian.  For us as Mormons
>>>>> Jesus is not just a good moral guide for an excelent life.  He isn't
>>>>> just an inspired teacher or prophet- he is a member of the godhead,
>>>>> our redemer and, ultimately, the only true savior for humankind.
>>>>> Without Christ we are doomed and lost, we need his atoning sacrifice
>>>>> in our lives both to purify us now and cleanse us for eternity.  In my
>>>>> book, if you agree with that, you're a Christian.  So despite the
>>>>> numerous and significant theological differences between Catholics and
>>>>> Protestants and Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals and Orthadox
>>>>> Christians, we all have that common ground.  Are Mormons Christian?
>>>>> Are Oneness pentecostals Christian?  I answer, emphatically, "yes!"
>>>>> Warmest regards,
>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/22/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This happens sometimes, and I've known people to be really 
>>>>>> embarrassed
>>>>>> at some of the things they said. However, in this case there is no 
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> for embarrassment. i felt that the information I gave in my reply 
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> be good for the whole list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blessed Easter,
>>>>>> John
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:44:57PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>> o> Woops...I sent a message thinking it would go just to John, but it
>>>>>>> went to the whole list.  My sincere appologies.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>>> I do believe you are right in the divisions.
>>>>>>>> I myself am a Catholic, but have taken the time to study the 2 
>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>> major
>>>>>>>> religions of the world (Judaism and Islam), and we're currently
>>>>>>>> studying
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> reformation in school.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> According to my understanding, the majesterium mandated at that 
>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> all bibles bee in Latin, therefore making it impossible for the
>>>>>>>> "common
>>>>>>>> people" to read,
>>>>>>>> while the protestants (please correct me if I'm wrong) were the 
>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> start reading the bible in common languages, believing that the 
>>>>>>>> bible
>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>> be read and understood by each and every believer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Am I correct?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>>> I never replied to your message earlier.  Thanks for your answers
>>>>>>>>> about the Majesterium and Tradition.  So, if I'm understanding
>>>>>>>>> right,
>>>>>>>>> it is your belief that the majesterium/teaching arm of the Roman
>>>>>>>>> Catholic church is simply clarifying the revelation already given.
>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>> other words, Jesus was and the Bible was the complete Revelation 
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> God.  If I'm understanding right, the biggest disagreement between
>>>>>>>>> Catholics and Protestants is a matter of interpretation of the
>>>>>>>>> Bible.
>>>>>>>>> For you, am I right in saying the interpretation provided by
>>>>>>>>> tradition/majesterium is authoritativ and the only "correct" way 
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> look at scripture, while in Protestant Christianity it is more 
>>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> the reader's own interpretation?  I know that's a huge
>>>>>>>>> generalization,
>>>>>>>>> but would you say I'm right there?
>>>>>>>>> Anyways...I'm also curious about another statement you made.  You
>>>>>>>>> said something to the effect of believing Joseph Smith's vissions
>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>> genuine, but not valid.  So...for you, as a Catholic, do you think
>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>> was misguided?  Partially inspired but ultimately mistaken in 
>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>> it too far?  Inspired by the devil?  I won't get offended, I want
>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>> honest opinion and I'm not going to take it personally.
>>>>>>>>> And, religious dialogue is definitely important...I'd say 
>>>>>>>>> escential.
>>>>>>>>> I think there's much to learn from all religions, and personally 
>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>> convinced God has inspired them all.  That doesn't mean I believe
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> everything every faith claims, but I see the hand of God 
>>>>>>>>> throughout
>>>>>>>>> the religious world.
>>>>>>>>> I have one other question for you.  Are you familiar with the idea
>>>>>>>>> of anonimous Christianity?  If so, what are your thoughts on it?
>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 4/21/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I'm definitely Christian, but I'm all for interrelitious dialog. 
>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>> fact, I think that is part of my particular work of 
>>>>>>>>>> evangelization.
>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>> you go to my website, http://www.godtouches.org you will see that
>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>> motto is "peace, love, service". I think that my work of
>>>>>>>>>> evangelization
>>>>>>>>>> is to spread these attitudes of Christ even in the secular world.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 09:25:24PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>>> I very much enjoy all the devotionals and prayer requests and
>>>>>>>>>>> discussions on here.  I'm pretty sure it's one of the few
>>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile
>>>>>>>>>>> distractions in life.  But I am curious, and I definitely don't
>>>>>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>>>>> to offend, if there are any non-christian regular readers of 
>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>> mailinglist?  I don't mean to procelyte, and I don't want this
>>>>>>>>>>> thread
>>>>>>>>>>> to turn into an overblown theological debate, but I'm very
>>>>>>>>>>> interested
>>>>>>>>>>> in talking with and learning from people from other faiths.  If
>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>> you, and you wouldn't mind talking, would you please email me
>>>>>>>>>>> off-list?  I won't procelyte- I won't try to baptize you or
>>>>>>>>>>> anything.
>>>>>>>>>>> I just want a friendly dialogue.
>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>> for
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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>>
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>
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