[Faith-talk] non-christians on this list

Jeanette nettiecosp at yahoo.com
Thu Apr 28 19:59:39 UTC 2011 

any  literature other than the bible is not God inspired there  fore is not 
reliable. just my opinion, not criticizing anyone, just what i believe, if 
you do not need Jesus to go to Heaven  then how to you explain the need for 
Him to sacrafice  His life for our sins?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list


> Kirt:
> I agree with your view,
> my difference being that although all are children of God,
> only those who do good shall be saved, weather they have a religion or 
> not.
>
> And, quick FYI, apparently I was just reading that this theory has been 
> written by
> Pope Benedict the 16th, though I can't remember his name prior to this.
>
> This was also included in the Second Vatican of the Catholic church,
> and if anyone's interested in research on this topic by the way,
> I've found Bookshare to be a surprisingly reliable source.
>
> Jorge
> On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:45 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>
>> Jorge,
>>  My church teaches that all humans are children of God.  Christians,
>> Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Wiccans, Atheists,
>> Satanists, murderers, rapists, everyone is literally a spirit child of
>> god.
>>  Also, you might be interested in the idea of "anonimous
>> christianity."  I'm not going to do it justice, but it was an idea
>> advanced by a certain catholic theologian (I can't recall the name)
>> that basically all people living christlike lives have access to
>> Christ's grace, though they don't know it yet.  As a Mormon, a central
>> part of my faith is that, some day, either in this life or the next,
>> all people will have the chance to hear the gospel of Christ.  Were
>> this not true, God would not be a fair and just God because,
>> throughout the ages, there have been billions of people who literally
>> never even heard of Jesus Christ.  I can't believe in a God who would
>> damn someone merely because they were never exposed to Christ in
>> mortal life, or because they chose to live by their original faith
>> instead, without really understanding what Christ offers.  So, I
>> believe that heaven will be full of Mormons and Catholics and Muslims
>> and HIndus and all manner of religions...at least, full of people who
>> believed all manner of religions while living here on earth, they will
>> all have accepted Christ as savior and lived his commandments to the
>> best of their abilities before being saved, though.  I'm just
>> rambling...but basically I believe that, just because someone dies
>> without faith in Christ, I don't believe they are ultimately condemned
>> to hell unless they reject Christ later.
>>  Just my thoughts.  I'd welcome discussion or civilized debate.
>>  Best,
>> Kirt
>>
>> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hello Kirt:
>>> I agree with you completely.
>>>
>>> In fact, if you look at the ancient documents and text,
>>> you will see that Christians started out as one group.
>>> Then for various reasons,
>>> divided,
>>> so in a way, we are both following the original tradition.
>>> But,
>>> that brings me to my point.
>>> What do we, as Christians, consider acceptable behavior for "children of
>>> God?"
>>>
>>> I understand that our Christianity stems from our belief in Jesus 
>>> Christ.
>>>
>>> But then  how do we define "children of God?"
>>> Would we consider Muslims as "children of God", despite their views on
>>> Jesus Christ being different then ours?
>>>
>>> Or do we also define "Children Of God" how we define "Christian?"
>>>
>>> Just food for thought.
>>>
>>>
>>> Jorge
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear list,
>>>> I feel like I need to respond to this thread.  Please understand I'm
>>>> not trying to spark controversy, I don't intend to debate anyone here,
>>>> and I'm not trying to impose my own faith on anyone.  But, with that
>>>> disclaimer out of the way, I want to answer one point that was made
>>>> earlier on this thread.
>>>> John, you said some of your LDS (Mormon) friends do not identify
>>>> themselves as Christian.  I think I understand why, although I
>>>> whole-heartedly proclaim myself a Christian.  It ultimately boils down
>>>> to your definition of a Christian.  If the only Christians are those
>>>> who worship the Trinity as God, and confess the Nycene creed, then I
>>>> suppose we Mormons aren't Christians.  But, by that definition, you're
>>>> excluding some of the most Christian people among us.  Consider Joshua
>>>> Lester, a oneness pentecostal who does not believe in the Trinity.
>>>> Would anyone here, on this list, seriously claim he isn't a Christian?
>>>> His understanding of God as one person is as different from the
>>>> traditional Trinity as my understanding of God as three separate,
>>>> distinctive personages who are one in purpose rather than substance.
>>>> Yet I have seen his denomination attacked and criticized in the world
>>>> for being "unChristian", just as mine has been.
>>>> So this brings me to my next point.  If Christians aren't exclusively
>>>> Trinitarians, what defines a Christian?  To me, it's obvious.  Anyone
>>>> who accepts Christ as lord and savior and relies exclusively upon him
>>>> as the only means of salvation is a Christian.  For us as Mormons
>>>> Jesus is not just a good moral guide for an excelent life.  He isn't
>>>> just an inspired teacher or prophet- he is a member of the godhead,
>>>> our redemer and, ultimately, the only true savior for humankind.
>>>> Without Christ we are doomed and lost, we need his atoning sacrifice
>>>> in our lives both to purify us now and cleanse us for eternity.  In my
>>>> book, if you agree with that, you're a Christian.  So despite the
>>>> numerous and significant theological differences between Catholics and
>>>> Protestants and Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals and Orthadox
>>>> Christians, we all have that common ground.  Are Mormons Christian?
>>>> Are Oneness pentecostals Christian?  I answer, emphatically, "yes!"
>>>> Warmest regards,
>>>> Kirt
>>>>
>>>> On 4/22/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>
>>>>> This happens sometimes, and I've known people to be really embarrassed
>>>>> at some of the things they said. However, in this case there is no 
>>>>> need
>>>>> for embarrassment. i felt that the information I gave in my reply 
>>>>> would
>>>>> be good for the whole list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Blessed Easter,
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:44:57PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>> o> Woops...I sent a message thinking it would go just to John, but it
>>>>>> went to the whole list.  My sincere appologies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/22/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>> I do believe you are right in the divisions.
>>>>>>> I myself am a Catholic, but have taken the time to study the 2 other
>>>>>>> major
>>>>>>> religions of the world (Judaism and Islam), and we're currently
>>>>>>> studying
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> reformation in school.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> According to my understanding, the majesterium mandated at that time
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> all bibles bee in Latin, therefore making it impossible for the 
>>>>>>> "common
>>>>>>> people" to read,
>>>>>>> while the protestants (please correct me if I'm wrong) were the 
>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> start reading the bible in common languages, believing that the 
>>>>>>> bible
>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>> be read and understood by each and every believer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Am I correct?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>> I never replied to your message earlier.  Thanks for your answers
>>>>>>>> about the Majesterium and Tradition.  So, if I'm understanding 
>>>>>>>> right,
>>>>>>>> it is your belief that the majesterium/teaching arm of the Roman
>>>>>>>> Catholic church is simply clarifying the revelation already given. 
>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>> other words, Jesus was and the Bible was the complete Revelation of
>>>>>>>> God.  If I'm understanding right, the biggest disagreement between
>>>>>>>> Catholics and Protestants is a matter of interpretation of the 
>>>>>>>> Bible.
>>>>>>>> For you, am I right in saying the interpretation provided by
>>>>>>>> tradition/majesterium is authoritativ and the only "correct" way to
>>>>>>>> look at scripture, while in Protestant Christianity it is more open 
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> the reader's own interpretation?  I know that's a huge 
>>>>>>>> generalization,
>>>>>>>> but would you say I'm right there?
>>>>>>>> Anyways...I'm also curious about another statement you made.  You
>>>>>>>> said something to the effect of believing Joseph Smith's vissions 
>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>> genuine, but not valid.  So...for you, as a Catholic, do you think 
>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>> was misguided?  Partially inspired but ultimately mistaken in 
>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>> it too far?  Inspired by the devil?  I won't get offended, I want 
>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>> honest opinion and I'm not going to take it personally.
>>>>>>>> And, religious dialogue is definitely important...I'd say 
>>>>>>>> escential.
>>>>>>>> I think there's much to learn from all religions, and personally 
>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>> convinced God has inspired them all.  That doesn't mean I believe 
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> everything every faith claims, but I see the hand of God throughout
>>>>>>>> the religious world.
>>>>>>>> I have one other question for you.  Are you familiar with the idea
>>>>>>>> of anonimous Christianity?  If so, what are your thoughts on it?
>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 4/21/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I'm definitely Christian, but I'm all for interrelitious dialog. 
>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>> fact, I think that is part of my particular work of 
>>>>>>>>> evangelization.
>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>> you go to my website, http://www.godtouches.org you will see that
>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>> motto is "peace, love, service". I think that my work of
>>>>>>>>> evangelization
>>>>>>>>> is to spread these attitudes of Christ even in the secular world.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 09:25:24PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>> I very much enjoy all the devotionals and prayer requests and
>>>>>>>>>> discussions on here.  I'm pretty sure it's one of the few 
>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile
>>>>>>>>>> distractions in life.  But I am curious, and I definitely don't 
>>>>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>>>> to offend, if there are any non-christian regular readers of this
>>>>>>>>>> mailinglist?  I don't mean to procelyte, and I don't want this
>>>>>>>>>> thread
>>>>>>>>>> to turn into an overblown theological debate, but I'm very
>>>>>>>>>> interested
>>>>>>>>>> in talking with and learning from people from other faiths.  If
>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>> you, and you wouldn't mind talking, would you please email me
>>>>>>>>>> off-list?  I won't procelyte- I won't try to baptize you or
>>>>>>>>>> anything.
>>>>>>>>>> I just want a friendly dialogue.
>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/john%40godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/john%40godtouches.org
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/nettiecosp%40yahoo.com

More information about the Faith-Talk mailing list