[Faith-talk] non-christians on this list

Fri Apr 29 02:12:26 UTC 2011

For those who have not heard the gospel of Christ, God knows their hearts 
and will deal with them accordingly.  For those of us who have heard the 
Word and Accept Christ as Lord and Savior, we are destined for Heaven.  That 
is what my understanding is.
Barbara

Through the sunny fields of yesterday
Echo voices of children now grown,
Their golden peals of laughter
Ring upon the ivied stone.
-----Original Message----- 
From: Kirt Manwaring
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:45 PM
To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list

Jorge,
  My church teaches that all humans are children of God.  Christians,
Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Wiccans, Atheists,
Satanists, murderers, rapists, everyone is literally a spirit child of
god.
  Also, you might be interested in the idea of "anonimous
christianity."  I'm not going to do it justice, but it was an idea
advanced by a certain catholic theologian (I can't recall the name)
that basically all people living christlike lives have access to
Christ's grace, though they don't know it yet.  As a Mormon, a central
part of my faith is that, some day, either in this life or the next,
all people will have the chance to hear the gospel of Christ.  Were
this not true, God would not be a fair and just God because,
throughout the ages, there have been billions of people who literally
never even heard of Jesus Christ.  I can't believe in a God who would
damn someone merely because they were never exposed to Christ in
mortal life, or because they chose to live by their original faith
instead, without really understanding what Christ offers.  So, I
believe that heaven will be full of Mormons and Catholics and Muslims
and HIndus and all manner of religions...at least, full of people who
believed all manner of religions while living here on earth, they will
all have accepted Christ as savior and lived his commandments to the
best of their abilities before being saved, though.  I'm just
rambling...but basically I believe that, just because someone dies
without faith in Christ, I don't believe they are ultimately condemned
to hell unless they reject Christ later.
  Just my thoughts.  I'd welcome discussion or civilized debate.
  Best,
Kirt

On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello Kirt:
> I agree with you completely.
>
> In fact, if you look at the ancient documents and text,
> you will see that Christians started out as one group.
> Then for various reasons,
> divided,
> so in a way, we are both following the original tradition.
> But,
> that brings me to my point.
> What do we, as Christians, consider acceptable behavior for "children of
> God?"
>
> I understand that our Christianity stems from our belief in Jesus Christ.
>
> But then  how do we define "children of God?"
>  Would we consider Muslims as "children of God", despite their views on
> Jesus Christ being different then ours?
>
> Or do we also define "Children Of God" how we define "Christian?"
>
> Just food for thought.
>
>
> Jorge
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 28, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>
>> Dear list,
>>  I feel like I need to respond to this thread.  Please understand I'm
>> not trying to spark controversy, I don't intend to debate anyone here,
>> and I'm not trying to impose my own faith on anyone.  But, with that
>> disclaimer out of the way, I want to answer one point that was made
>> earlier on this thread.
>> John, you said some of your LDS (Mormon) friends do not identify
>> themselves as Christian.  I think I understand why, although I
>> whole-heartedly proclaim myself a Christian.  It ultimately boils down
>> to your definition of a Christian.  If the only Christians are those
>> who worship the Trinity as God, and confess the Nycene creed, then I
>> suppose we Mormons aren't Christians.  But, by that definition, you're
>> excluding some of the most Christian people among us.  Consider Joshua
>> Lester, a oneness pentecostal who does not believe in the Trinity.
>> Would anyone here, on this list, seriously claim he isn't a Christian?
>> His understanding of God as one person is as different from the
>> traditional Trinity as my understanding of God as three separate,
>> distinctive personages who are one in purpose rather than substance.
>> Yet I have seen his denomination attacked and criticized in the world
>> for being "unChristian", just as mine has been.
>> So this brings me to my next point.  If Christians aren't exclusively
>> Trinitarians, what defines a Christian?  To me, it's obvious.  Anyone
>> who accepts Christ as lord and savior and relies exclusively upon him
>> as the only means of salvation is a Christian.  For us as Mormons
>> Jesus is not just a good moral guide for an excelent life.  He isn't
>> just an inspired teacher or prophet- he is a member of the godhead,
>> our redemer and, ultimately, the only true savior for humankind.
>> Without Christ we are doomed and lost, we need his atoning sacrifice
>> in our lives both to purify us now and cleanse us for eternity.  In my
>> book, if you agree with that, you're a Christian.  So despite the
>> numerous and significant theological differences between Catholics and
>> Protestants and Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals and Orthadox
>> Christians, we all have that common ground.  Are Mormons Christian?
>> Are Oneness pentecostals Christian?  I answer, emphatically, "yes!"
>>  Warmest regards,
>> Kirt
>>
>> On 4/22/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>> Kirt,
>>>
>>> This happens sometimes, and I've known people to be really embarrassed
>>> at some of the things they said. However, in this case there is no need
>>> for embarrassment. i felt that the information I gave in my reply would
>>> be good for the whole list.
>>>
>>> Blessed Easter,
>>> John
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:44:57PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>> o> Woops...I sent a message thinking it would go just to John, but it
>>>> went to the whole list.  My sincere appologies.
>>>>
>>>> On 4/22/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>> I do believe you are right in the divisions.
>>>>> I myself am a Catholic, but have taken the time to study the 2 other
>>>>> major
>>>>> religions of the world (Judaism and Islam), and we're currently
>>>>> studying
>>>>> the
>>>>> reformation in school.
>>>>>
>>>>> According to my understanding, the majesterium mandated at that time
>>>>> that
>>>>> all bibles bee in Latin, therefore making it impossible for the 
>>>>> "common
>>>>> people" to read,
>>>>> while the protestants (please correct me if I'm wrong) were the first
>>>>> to
>>>>> start reading the bible in common languages, believing that the bible
>>>>> should
>>>>> be read and understood by each and every believer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Am I correct?
>>>>>
>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> John,
>>>>>> I never replied to your message earlier.  Thanks for your answers
>>>>>> about the Majesterium and Tradition.  So, if I'm understanding right,
>>>>>> it is your belief that the majesterium/teaching arm of the Roman
>>>>>> Catholic church is simply clarifying the revelation already given. 
>>>>>> In
>>>>>> other words, Jesus was and the Bible was the complete Revelation of
>>>>>> God.  If I'm understanding right, the biggest disagreement between
>>>>>> Catholics and Protestants is a matter of interpretation of the Bible.
>>>>>> For you, am I right in saying the interpretation provided by
>>>>>> tradition/majesterium is authoritativ and the only "correct" way to
>>>>>> look at scripture, while in Protestant Christianity it is more open 
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> the reader's own interpretation?  I know that's a huge 
>>>>>> generalization,
>>>>>> but would you say I'm right there?
>>>>>> Anyways...I'm also curious about another statement you made.  You
>>>>>> said something to the effect of believing Joseph Smith's vissions 
>>>>>> were
>>>>>> genuine, but not valid.  So...for you, as a Catholic, do you think he
>>>>>> was misguided?  Partially inspired but ultimately mistaken in taking
>>>>>> it too far?  Inspired by the devil?  I won't get offended, I want 
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> honest opinion and I'm not going to take it personally.
>>>>>> And, religious dialogue is definitely important...I'd say escential.
>>>>>> I think there's much to learn from all religions, and personally I'm
>>>>>> convinced God has inspired them all.  That doesn't mean I believe 
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> everything every faith claims, but I see the hand of God throughout
>>>>>> the religious world.
>>>>>> I have one other question for you.  Are you familiar with the idea
>>>>>> of anonimous Christianity?  If so, what are your thoughts on it?
>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/21/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> I'm definitely Christian, but I'm all for interrelitious dialog. In
>>>>>>> fact, I think that is part of my particular work of evangelization.
>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>> you go to my website, http://www.godtouches.org you will see that
>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>> motto is "peace, love, service". I think that my work of
>>>>>>> evangelization
>>>>>>> is to spread these attitudes of Christ even in the secular world.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 09:25:24PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>> I very much enjoy all the devotionals and prayer requests and
>>>>>>>> discussions on here.  I'm pretty sure it's one of the few 
>>>>>>>> worthwhile
>>>>>>>> distractions in life.  But I am curious, and I definitely don't 
>>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>> to offend, if there are any non-christian regular readers of this
>>>>>>>> mailinglist?  I don't mean to procelyte, and I don't want this
>>>>>>>> thread
>>>>>>>> to turn into an overblown theological debate, but I'm very
>>>>>>>> interested
>>>>>>>> in talking with and learning from people from other faiths.  If
>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>> you, and you wouldn't mind talking, would you please email me
>>>>>>>> off-list?  I won't procelyte- I won't try to baptize you or
>>>>>>>> anything.
>>>>>>>> I just want a friendly dialogue.
>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> --
>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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>
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