[Faith-talk] non-christians on this list

Jeanette nettiecosp at yahoo.com
Fri Apr 29 05:27:36 UTC 2011 

that is  my understanding also, i think sometimes, just been my experience 
folks who have loved ones who  did not accept Christ in their lifetime  want 
to find a way for them to have the opportunity to do so after death, i have 
a couple of friends who believe this because they do not want to believe the 
folks they love are not in heaven.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Barbara Hammel" <poetlori8 at msn.com>
To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion" 
<faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list


> For those who have not heard the gospel of Christ, God knows their hearts 
> and will deal with them accordingly.  For those of us who have heard the 
> Word and Accept Christ as Lord and Savior, we are destined for Heaven. 
> That is what my understanding is.
> Barbara
>
>
>
>
> Through the sunny fields of yesterday
> Echo voices of children now grown,
> Their golden peals of laughter
> Ring upon the ivied stone.
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Kirt Manwaring
> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:45 PM
> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>
> Jorge,
>  My church teaches that all humans are children of God.  Christians,
> Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Wiccans, Atheists,
> Satanists, murderers, rapists, everyone is literally a spirit child of
> god.
>  Also, you might be interested in the idea of "anonimous
> christianity."  I'm not going to do it justice, but it was an idea
> advanced by a certain catholic theologian (I can't recall the name)
> that basically all people living christlike lives have access to
> Christ's grace, though they don't know it yet.  As a Mormon, a central
> part of my faith is that, some day, either in this life or the next,
> all people will have the chance to hear the gospel of Christ.  Were
> this not true, God would not be a fair and just God because,
> throughout the ages, there have been billions of people who literally
> never even heard of Jesus Christ.  I can't believe in a God who would
> damn someone merely because they were never exposed to Christ in
> mortal life, or because they chose to live by their original faith
> instead, without really understanding what Christ offers.  So, I
> believe that heaven will be full of Mormons and Catholics and Muslims
> and HIndus and all manner of religions...at least, full of people who
> believed all manner of religions while living here on earth, they will
> all have accepted Christ as savior and lived his commandments to the
> best of their abilities before being saved, though.  I'm just
> rambling...but basically I believe that, just because someone dies
> without faith in Christ, I don't believe they are ultimately condemned
> to hell unless they reject Christ later.
>  Just my thoughts.  I'd welcome discussion or civilized debate.
>  Best,
> Kirt
>
> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hello Kirt:
>> I agree with you completely.
>>
>> In fact, if you look at the ancient documents and text,
>> you will see that Christians started out as one group.
>> Then for various reasons,
>> divided,
>> so in a way, we are both following the original tradition.
>> But,
>> that brings me to my point.
>> What do we, as Christians, consider acceptable behavior for "children of
>> God?"
>>
>> I understand that our Christianity stems from our belief in Jesus Christ.
>>
>> But then  how do we define "children of God?"
>>  Would we consider Muslims as "children of God", despite their views on
>> Jesus Christ being different then ours?
>>
>> Or do we also define "Children Of God" how we define "Christian?"
>>
>> Just food for thought.
>>
>>
>> Jorge
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>
>>> Dear list,
>>>  I feel like I need to respond to this thread.  Please understand I'm
>>> not trying to spark controversy, I don't intend to debate anyone here,
>>> and I'm not trying to impose my own faith on anyone.  But, with that
>>> disclaimer out of the way, I want to answer one point that was made
>>> earlier on this thread.
>>> John, you said some of your LDS (Mormon) friends do not identify
>>> themselves as Christian.  I think I understand why, although I
>>> whole-heartedly proclaim myself a Christian.  It ultimately boils down
>>> to your definition of a Christian.  If the only Christians are those
>>> who worship the Trinity as God, and confess the Nycene creed, then I
>>> suppose we Mormons aren't Christians.  But, by that definition, you're
>>> excluding some of the most Christian people among us.  Consider Joshua
>>> Lester, a oneness pentecostal who does not believe in the Trinity.
>>> Would anyone here, on this list, seriously claim he isn't a Christian?
>>> His understanding of God as one person is as different from the
>>> traditional Trinity as my understanding of God as three separate,
>>> distinctive personages who are one in purpose rather than substance.
>>> Yet I have seen his denomination attacked and criticized in the world
>>> for being "unChristian", just as mine has been.
>>> So this brings me to my next point.  If Christians aren't exclusively
>>> Trinitarians, what defines a Christian?  To me, it's obvious.  Anyone
>>> who accepts Christ as lord and savior and relies exclusively upon him
>>> as the only means of salvation is a Christian.  For us as Mormons
>>> Jesus is not just a good moral guide for an excelent life.  He isn't
>>> just an inspired teacher or prophet- he is a member of the godhead,
>>> our redemer and, ultimately, the only true savior for humankind.
>>> Without Christ we are doomed and lost, we need his atoning sacrifice
>>> in our lives both to purify us now and cleanse us for eternity.  In my
>>> book, if you agree with that, you're a Christian.  So despite the
>>> numerous and significant theological differences between Catholics and
>>> Protestants and Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals and Orthadox
>>> Christians, we all have that common ground.  Are Mormons Christian?
>>> Are Oneness pentecostals Christian?  I answer, emphatically, "yes!"
>>>  Warmest regards,
>>> Kirt
>>>
>>> On 4/22/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>> Kirt,
>>>>
>>>> This happens sometimes, and I've known people to be really embarrassed
>>>> at some of the things they said. However, in this case there is no need
>>>> for embarrassment. i felt that the information I gave in my reply would
>>>> be good for the whole list.
>>>>
>>>> Blessed Easter,
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:44:57PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>> o> Woops...I sent a message thinking it would go just to John, but it
>>>>> went to the whole list.  My sincere appologies.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/22/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>> I do believe you are right in the divisions.
>>>>>> I myself am a Catholic, but have taken the time to study the 2 other
>>>>>> major
>>>>>> religions of the world (Judaism and Islam), and we're currently
>>>>>> studying
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> reformation in school.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> According to my understanding, the majesterium mandated at that time
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> all bibles bee in Latin, therefore making it impossible for the 
>>>>>> "common
>>>>>> people" to read,
>>>>>> while the protestants (please correct me if I'm wrong) were the first
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> start reading the bible in common languages, believing that the bible
>>>>>> should
>>>>>> be read and understood by each and every believer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am I correct?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>> I never replied to your message earlier.  Thanks for your answers
>>>>>>> about the Majesterium and Tradition.  So, if I'm understanding 
>>>>>>> right,
>>>>>>> it is your belief that the majesterium/teaching arm of the Roman
>>>>>>> Catholic church is simply clarifying the revelation already given. 
>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>> other words, Jesus was and the Bible was the complete Revelation of
>>>>>>> God.  If I'm understanding right, the biggest disagreement between
>>>>>>> Catholics and Protestants is a matter of interpretation of the 
>>>>>>> Bible.
>>>>>>> For you, am I right in saying the interpretation provided by
>>>>>>> tradition/majesterium is authoritativ and the only "correct" way to
>>>>>>> look at scripture, while in Protestant Christianity it is more open 
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> the reader's own interpretation?  I know that's a huge 
>>>>>>> generalization,
>>>>>>> but would you say I'm right there?
>>>>>>> Anyways...I'm also curious about another statement you made.  You
>>>>>>> said something to the effect of believing Joseph Smith's vissions 
>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>> genuine, but not valid.  So...for you, as a Catholic, do you think 
>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>> was misguided?  Partially inspired but ultimately mistaken in taking
>>>>>>> it too far?  Inspired by the devil?  I won't get offended, I want 
>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>> honest opinion and I'm not going to take it personally.
>>>>>>> And, religious dialogue is definitely important...I'd say escential.
>>>>>>> I think there's much to learn from all religions, and personally I'm
>>>>>>> convinced God has inspired them all.  That doesn't mean I believe 
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> everything every faith claims, but I see the hand of God throughout
>>>>>>> the religious world.
>>>>>>> I have one other question for you.  Are you familiar with the idea
>>>>>>> of anonimous Christianity?  If so, what are your thoughts on it?
>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/21/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I'm definitely Christian, but I'm all for interrelitious dialog. In
>>>>>>>> fact, I think that is part of my particular work of evangelization.
>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>> you go to my website, http://www.godtouches.org you will see that
>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>> motto is "peace, love, service". I think that my work of
>>>>>>>> evangelization
>>>>>>>> is to spread these attitudes of Christ even in the secular world.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 09:25:24PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>> I very much enjoy all the devotionals and prayer requests and
>>>>>>>>> discussions on here.  I'm pretty sure it's one of the few 
>>>>>>>>> worthwhile
>>>>>>>>> distractions in life.  But I am curious, and I definitely don't 
>>>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>>> to offend, if there are any non-christian regular readers of this
>>>>>>>>> mailinglist?  I don't mean to procelyte, and I don't want this
>>>>>>>>> thread
>>>>>>>>> to turn into an overblown theological debate, but I'm very
>>>>>>>>> interested
>>>>>>>>> in talking with and learning from people from other faiths.  If
>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>> you, and you wouldn't mind talking, would you please email me
>>>>>>>>> off-list?  I won't procelyte- I won't try to baptize you or
>>>>>>>>> anything.
>>>>>>>>> I just want a friendly dialogue.
>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
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>>
>>
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>
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