[Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
Amy Ragain
belovedconsecrated2god at gmail.com
Fri Apr 29 04:36:14 UTC 2011
amen!
On Apr 28, 2011, at 9:07 PM, Alan Wheeler wrote:
> George,
> You keep saying it is a greater crime to not believe in God than it is to
> not believe in Christ. Yet, Christ Himself says that no one...I repeat and
> emphasize *NO ONE* comes to the father but through Him. Our *ONLY* way to
> God is through Jesus Christ, and Jesus, Himself said it. So, your argument
> isn't with me, it's with our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
>
> I already posted this verse in context, but let me repost it, by itself, to
> give it greater emphasis:
> ¶Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to
> the Father except through me.
> John 14:6
>
> So, if no one comes to God except through Jesus Christ, isn't the greater
> sin (I don't call it a crime) to not believe in Jesus?
>
> Just something to think about.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On Behalf Of Jorge Paez
> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 8:25 PM
> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>
> Alan:
> With all due respect,
> you have to be aware the bible uses complex langauge structures.
> For example: have you ever tried reading Revelations?
> You should, but it is a very complicated book to understand.
>
> What he means by the Father threw me is simple:
> if you know him, you know the father.
>
> But… and this is an important point,
> it is a greater crime to not believe in God, then it is to not recognize
> Jesus.
>
> After all, muslims don't recognize Jesus as the Christ and yet their codes
> of ethics stand amongst one of the strictest, and strongest I've seen.
>
> There are many muslims I know who would put so-called Christians to shae
> with their devotion to God.
>
> Are you saying they are bound to hell?
>
> Not attacking you, just wondering.
>
> Jorge
>
>
> On Apr 28, 2011, at 8:04 PM, Alan Wheeler wrote:
>
>> No, it is Christ, Himself, who said He is the only way:
>> John 14
>>
>> 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have
>> told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
>> 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take
>> you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
>> 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
>> 5 ¶Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don't know where you are going, so
>> how can we know the way?”
>> 6 ¶Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one
>> comes to the Father except through me.
>> 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now
>> on, you do know him and have seen him.”
>>
>>
>> Take note, Jesus didn't say "I am *A* way, *A* truth, and *A* life,"
>> but rather said "I am *THE* way, *THE* truth, and *THE* life." Use of
>> the word "the" in that context denotes singleness or exclusivity. So,
>> Jesus was, in essence saying he was the only way, the only truth, and the
> only life.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On Behalf Of Jorge Paez
>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 6:11 PM
>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>
>> Christ is who we Christians say is the only way.
>>
>> I think its a bigger crime not to believe in God, E.G., atheists, then
>> not to believe in Christ.
>>
>>
>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 6:57 PM, Jeanette wrote:
>>
>>> the folks who lived before Christ believed in god, they looked
>>> forward to
>> Christ the Messiah, God reveals himself to those He chooses to reveal
>> himself to. but according to the bible Jesus is the only way, this is
>> my personal belief i think by telling people if they are good they
>> will go to heaven you are saying there is no need for the sacrafice
>> Christ made on the cross. if being good is all it takes then you are
>> saying there is no need for hell either.
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez"
>>> <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 3:28 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>
>>>
>>>> I say Gandi is in heaven.
>>>> Like I said earlier, anyone who does good, and follows God's
>>>> commandments
>> though they don't know it obviously, is going to heaven.
>>>>
>>>> Because, if you think of it,
>>>> would all those who believed in God before Christ go to hell because
>>>> they
>> did not know him?
>>>>
>>>> It is now so much knowing him, though for us Christians we must, but
>>>> for
>> those who have no concept of Christ, to follow God's commandments.
>>>>
>>>> It is written in the Second Vatican, "for those who don't know
>>>> Christ,
>> then God shall reveal on to them in ways that only He knows."
>>>>
>>>> This is perhaps suggesting that despite everything that is said on
>>>> the
>> outside, even athiests have been shown some light?
>>>>
>>>> Some compulsion to do good, dispite their outwards denial of God?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 4:59 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I believe you absolutely need Jesus- but I have to reconcile that
>>>>> belief with the fact that most people throughout history either
>>>>> never heard of Christ, or had no real idea who he was. Will
>>>>> someone like Gandhi, who did an incredible amount of good in this
>>>>> life, go to hell simply because he didn't accept Jesus as savior
>>>>> while he was
>> here?
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jeanette <nettiecosp at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> any literature other than the bible is not God inspired there
>>>>>> fore is not reliable. just my opinion, not criticizing anyone,
>>>>>> just what i believe, if you do not need Jesus to go to Heaven
>>>>>> then how to you explain the need for Him to sacrafice His life for
> our sins?
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:14 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>> I agree with your view,
>>>>>>> my difference being that although all are children of God, only
>>>>>>> those who do good shall be saved, weather they have a religion or
>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And, quick FYI, apparently I was just reading that this theory
>>>>>>> has been written by Pope Benedict the 16th, though I can't
>>>>>>> remember his name prior to this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This was also included in the Second Vatican of the Catholic
>>>>>>> church, and if anyone's interested in research on this topic by
>>>>>>> the way, I've found Bookshare to be a surprisingly reliable source.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:45 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jorge,
>>>>>>>> My church teaches that all humans are children of God.
>>>>>>>> Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Wiccans,
>>>>>>>> Atheists, Satanists, murderers, rapists, everyone is literally a
>>>>>>>> spirit child of god.
>>>>>>>> Also, you might be interested in the idea of "anonimous
>>>>>>>> christianity." I'm not going to do it justice, but it was an
>>>>>>>> idea advanced by a certain catholic theologian (I can't recall
>>>>>>>> the name) that basically all people living christlike lives have
>>>>>>>> access to Christ's grace, though they don't know it yet. As a
>>>>>>>> Mormon, a central part of my faith is that, some day, either in
>>>>>>>> this life or the next, all people will have the chance to hear
>>>>>>>> the gospel of Christ. Were this not true, God would not be a
>>>>>>>> fair and just God because, throughout the ages, there have been
>>>>>>>> billions of people who literally never even heard of Jesus
>>>>>>>> Christ. I can't believe in a God who would damn someone merely
>>>>>>>> because they were never exposed to Christ in mortal life, or
>>>>>>>> because they chose to live by their original faith instead,
>>>>>>>> without really understanding what Christ offers. So, I believe
>>>>>>>> that heaven will be full of Mormons and Catholics and Muslims
>>>>>>>> and HIndus and all manner of religions...at least, full of
>>>>>>>> people who believed all manner of religions while living here on
>>>>>>>> earth, they will all have accepted Christ as savior and lived
>>>>>>>> his commandments to the best of their abilities before being
>>>>>>>> saved, though. I'm just rambling...but basically I believe
>>>>>>>> that, just because someone dies without faith in Christ, I don't
>>>>>>>> believe they
>> are ultimately condemned to hell unless they reject Christ later.
>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts. I'd welcome discussion or civilized debate.
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hello Kirt:
>>>>>>>>> I agree with you completely.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In fact, if you look at the ancient documents and text, you
>>>>>>>>> will see that Christians started out as one group.
>>>>>>>>> Then for various reasons,
>>>>>>>>> divided,
>>>>>>>>> so in a way, we are both following the original tradition.
>>>>>>>>> But,
>>>>>>>>> that brings me to my point.
>>>>>>>>> What do we, as Christians, consider acceptable behavior for
>>>>>>>>> "children of God?"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I understand that our Christianity stems from our belief in
>>>>>>>>> Jesus Christ.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But then how do we define "children of God?"
>>>>>>>>> Would we consider Muslims as "children of God", despite their
>>>>>>>>> views on Jesus Christ being different then ours?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Or do we also define "Children Of God" how we define "Christian?"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just food for thought.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>> I feel like I need to respond to this thread. Please
>>>>>>>>>> understand I'm not trying to spark controversy, I don't intend
>>>>>>>>>> to debate anyone here, and I'm not trying to impose my own
>>>>>>>>>> faith on anyone. But, with that disclaimer out of the way, I
>>>>>>>>>> want to answer one point that was made earlier on this thread.
>>>>>>>>>> John, you said some of your LDS (Mormon) friends do not
>>>>>>>>>> identify themselves as Christian. I think I understand why,
>>>>>>>>>> although I whole-heartedly proclaim myself a Christian. It
>>>>>>>>>> ultimately boils down to your definition of a Christian. If
>>>>>>>>>> the only Christians are those who worship the Trinity as God,
>>>>>>>>>> and confess the Nycene creed, then I suppose we Mormons aren't
>>>>>>>>>> Christians. But, by that definition, you're excluding some of
>>>>>>>>>> the most Christian people among us. Consider Joshua Lester, a
>> oneness pentecostal who does not believe in the Trinity.
>>>>>>>>>> Would anyone here, on this list, seriously claim he isn't a
>> Christian?
>>>>>>>>>> His understanding of God as one person is as different from
>>>>>>>>>> the traditional Trinity as my understanding of God as three
>>>>>>>>>> separate, distinctive personages who are one in purpose rather
>>>>>>>>>> than
>> substance.
>>>>>>>>>> Yet I have seen his denomination attacked and criticized in
>>>>>>>>>> the world for being "unChristian", just as mine has been.
>>>>>>>>>> So this brings me to my next point. If Christians aren't
>>>>>>>>>> exclusively Trinitarians, what defines a Christian? To me,
>>>>>>>>>> it's obvious. Anyone who accepts Christ as lord and savior and
>>>>>>>>>> relies exclusively upon him as the only means of salvation is
>>>>>>>>>> a Christian. For us as Mormons Jesus is not just a good moral
>>>>>>>>>> guide for an excelent life. He isn't just an inspired teacher
>>>>>>>>>> or prophet- he is a member of the godhead, our redemer and,
>> ultimately, the only true savior for humankind.
>>>>>>>>>> Without Christ we are doomed and lost, we need his atoning
>>>>>>>>>> sacrifice in our lives both to purify us now and cleanse us
>>>>>>>>>> for eternity. In my book, if you agree with that, you're a
>>>>>>>>>> Christian. So despite the numerous and significant
>>>>>>>>>> theological differences between Catholics and Protestants and
>>>>>>>>>> Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals and Orthadox Christians, we
>>>>>>>>>> all have that
>> common ground. Are Mormons Christian?
>>>>>>>>>> Are Oneness pentecostals Christian? I answer, emphatically,
> "yes!"
>>>>>>>>>> Warmest regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This happens sometimes, and I've known people to be really
>>>>>>>>>>> embarrassed at some of the things they said. However, in this
>>>>>>>>>>> case there is no need for embarrassment. i felt that the
>>>>>>>>>>> information I gave in my reply would be good for the whole
>>>>>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Blessed Easter,
>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:44:57PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> o> Woops...I sent a message thinking it would go just to
>>>>>>>>>>> o> John, but it
>>>>>>>>>>>> went to the whole list. My sincere appologies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do believe you are right in the divisions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I myself am a Catholic, but have taken the time to study
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 other major religions of the world (Judaism and Islam),
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and we're currently studying the reformation in school.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to my understanding, the majesterium mandated at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that time that all bibles bee in Latin, therefore making it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> impossible for the "common people" to read, while the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> protestants (please correct me if I'm wrong) were the first
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to start reading the bible in common languages, believing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the bible should be read and understood by each and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> every believer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am I correct?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never replied to your message earlier. Thanks for your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answers about the Majesterium and Tradition. So, if I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding right, it is your belief that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majesterium/teaching arm of the Roman Catholic church is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply clarifying the revelation already given.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other words, Jesus was and the Bible was the complete
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revelation of God. If I'm understanding right, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> biggest disagreement between Catholics and Protestants is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a matter of interpretation of the Bible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For you, am I right in saying the interpretation provided
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by tradition/majesterium is authoritativ and the only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "correct" way to look at scripture, while in Protestant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christianity it is more open
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the reader's own interpretation? I know that's a huge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generalization, but would you say I'm right there?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyways...I'm also curious about another statement you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made. You said something to the effect of believing Joseph
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Smith's vissions were genuine, but not valid. So...for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you, as a Catholic, do you think he was misguided?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Partially inspired but ultimately mistaken in taking it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> too far? Inspired by the devil? I won't get offended, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want your honest opinion and I'm not going to take it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, religious dialogue is definitely important...I'd say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> escential.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there's much to learn from all religions, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally I'm convinced God has inspired them all. That
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't mean I believe with everything every faith claims,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I see the hand of God throughout the religious world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have one other question for you. Are you familiar with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the idea of anonimous Christianity? If so, what are your
>> thoughts on it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/21/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm definitely Christian, but I'm all for interrelitious
>> dialog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fact, I think that is part of my particular work of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evangelization.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you go to my website, http://www.godtouches.org you will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see that it's motto is "peace, love, service". I think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that my work of evangelization is to spread these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attitudes of Christ even in the secular world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 09:25:24PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring
>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much enjoy all the devotionals and prayer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> requests and discussions on here. I'm pretty sure it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one of the few worthwhile distractions in life. But I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> am curious, and I definitely don't mean to offend, if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there are any non-christian regular readers of this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailinglist? I don't mean to procelyte, and I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want this thread to turn into an overblown theological
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> debate, but I'm very interested in talking with and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> learning from people from other faiths. If that's you,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and you wouldn't mind talking, would you please email me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off-list? I won't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> procelyte- I won't try to baptize you or anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just want a friendly dialogue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o rg/john%40godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director GodTouches Digital
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org Madison, Wisconsin, USA Peace,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o rg To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> r g/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> r g To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info for
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> g /computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> g To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> /
>>>>>>>>>>>>> kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>> j
>>>>>>>>>>>> ohn%40godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director GodTouches Digital
>>>>>>>>>>> Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>> i
>>>>>>>>>>> rt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> t
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
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