[Faith-talk] After we die WAS RE: this week's reflection - what is the right way?-understanding others

Fri Apr 29 23:51:51 UTC 2011

Very interesting point Joshua.
Will certainly study that.
And, 325 AD is actually interesting,
because it was after the First Vatican--in other words,
after the Catholic church stablished the magestirium and declaired its official traditions.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the Holy Trinity,
but I respect your point.
Jorge

On Apr 29, 2011, at 10:52 AM, Joshua Lester wrote:

> Jorge, we are all creations of God, not children of God.
> Jesus said, that when we're in sin, we are Satan's children.
> When we come into Christ, we become God's children.
> Those that do not come into Christ, are not God's children.
> That's Bible.
> How do we come into Christ?
> First of all, who is Jesus.
> Some teach that he's the second person in the Godhead, and some teach
> that he's God, all by himself.
> Well, you need to understand, that there are not 3 persons in the Godhead.
> This will ruffle a few feathers on this list, but that's the truth.
> John 4:24 says, that God is a spirit, (not a person.)
> They that worship God must worship him, in spirit and in truth.
> The Holy Spirit is a spirit, (not a person.)
> Persons have flesh and blood, spirits don't.
> The only one that became flesh was the son.
> How?
> 1 Timothy, 3:16 tells us that God was made manifest in the flesh.
> God, (spirit,) manifested in the flesh, (son.)
> The flesh revealed God's name, (Jesus.)
> Colossians, 1:19 "and it pleased the Father, that in him should all
> fullness dwell."
> Colossians, 2:9. "And in him, (Jesus,) dwelleth all the fullness of
> the Godhead bodily."
> Jesus was the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and now, he's
> the Holy Ghost in regeneration.
> Matthew 28:19 says for us to baptize in the name of the Father, and of
> the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
> Notice the word is "name," (not "names.")
> I've just established that the name of the Father, Son, and Holy
> Ghost, was Jesus.
> That's why we baptize in Jesus's name, (Acts, 2:38.)
> Everyone was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, the Lord Jesus, the
> Lord," never, "Father Son and Holy Ghost."
> That didn't start, until 325 A.D.
> Read Acts, 2:38, Acts, 8:16, Acts, 10, Acts, 19:1/6.
> Blessings, Joshua
> 
> On 4/29/11, Alan Wheeler <awheeler65 at windstream.net> wrote:
>> Jeanette and everyone,
>> Let me share a couple of sections from the set of fundamental beliefs of the
>> Seventh-day Adventist church, which I am going to be joinging soon. This
>> clearly, using only the bible, explains what happens after we die, and how
>> humanity is judged. I know it's a lot of scripture to look at, but if you
>> all look, you'll see the truth of it.
>> 
>> 
>> 26. Death and Resurrection:
>> The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant
>> eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state
>> for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected
>> righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet
>> their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous,
>> will take place a thousand years later. (Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16; Eccl.
>> 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3, 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess.
>> 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10.)
>> 
>> 27. Millennium and the End of Sin:
>> The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in
>> heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the
>> wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without
>> living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close
>> Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth.
>> The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels
>> will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the
>> earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20;
>> 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On Behalf Of Jeanette
>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 12:22 AM
>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] this week's reflection - what is the right
>> way?-understanding others
>> 
>> everyone seems to want to talk about God's love but not about God's wrath
>> against sin, it seems that it is all about us and not about a loving god who
>> gives us a choice to choose His ways or not to, everything in life has
>> consequences so what you are saying is there are no consequences to choosing
>> a different way here on earth and if you don't like the after life you get
>> you can change your mind, don't see that in the bible.
>> as to whether folks are a child of God i kind of think it has to do with
>> what your definition of child of God is, if you mean since God created us
>> all then we are all his children, i suppose that is true.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 7:33 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] this week's reflection - what is the right way?
>> -understanding others
>> 
>> 
>> Joshua:
>> are you suggesting that those who do not believe in Jesus Christ are
>> therefore not children of God?
>> Is this not hypocritical?
>> Does it not go against the image of the loving God Christians like to
>> portray?
>> For love is for all,
>> love for some is not true love.
>> Is that right?
>> 
>> Jorge
>> 
>> 
>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 8:29 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>> 
>>> Jorge, this is the same "new thought," "seeker sensitive," stuff, we
>>> see in today's churches.
>>> The Jews didn't accept Jesus, but the Bible is clear, that every knee
>>> shall bow, and every tongue shall confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord.
>>> There's only one way to Heaven, and that's through Jesus Christ.
>>> There's no way around it.
>>> The other religions aren't correct.
>>> Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no man cometh to the
>>> Father, but by him.
>>> That's what Jesus said.
>>> He wasn't sent to Christians, because there weren't any Christians,
>>> until Antioch.
>>> The Bible says, that they were called Christians first, at Antioch.
>>> Jesus was sent to the world, those who accept him are Christians.
>>> What constitutes a true Christian?
>>> Acts, 2:38 tells us where to begin our Christian walk.
>>> "then Peter said unto them,
>>> "Repent, and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus
>>> Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of
>>> the Holy Ghost."
>>> There are 3 steps to salvation, according to Peter.
>>> #1. Repentence, #2. Baptism in Jesus's name, and #3. Receiving the
>>> Holy Ghost, with the initial sign of speaking in other tongues, as the
>>> Spirit gives utterance, (see Acts, 2:4.) If you're going to call
>>> yourself a Christian, you need to start with the way the Apostles did.
>>> Just my thoughts.
>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>> 
>>> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> There is no clear answer on what the "right" way is.
>>>> 
>>>> Of course for us Christians it is knowing Jesus, but the other
>>>> religions have different perspectives.
>>>> Take this theologians line:
>>>> "Muhammad was sent to the Muslims, as Jesus was sent to the
>>>> Christians, as Moses was sent to the jews."
>>>> 
>>>> What does this tell you?
>>>> 
>>>> Well, if you realize the fact that the jews never accepted Jesus as
>>>> Christus (greek for Christ), but just as one more teacher, so to
>>>> speak, and that their main holiday to celebrate the glory of God is
>>>> passover, in which God leads the Jewish nation out of Israel, and the
>>>> fact that we celebrate our revelation from God, Easter, on the very
>>>> week, it shows you that the right way isn't set in stone.
>>>> 
>>>> Because our 2 religions have 2 completely different revelations, one
>>>> from Moses and one from Jesus, both who were messengers of God (and
>>>> for Christians, Jesus is part of the holy trinity, which is God) In
>>>> effect, both revelations were made by God on to us in different eras
>>>> and in different forms.
>>>> 
>>>> Now add to that one more layer.
>>>> 
>>>> In the gospel, Jesus says something very interesting after the first
>>>> revelation of his passion to the 12 disciples. When Peter asks,
>>>> "Master, why do the scribes say that Elisha must come first?"
>>>> 
>>>> Jesus replied "I assure you Elisha will come." then says ".but surely
>>>> Elisha has already come, and man has done on to him what they will."
>>>> 
>>>> That part caught my attention. If you know your old testament, you
>>>> know that Elisha, as known by the Christians, has already come. His
>>>> book is written years before the new testament even begins.
>>>> 
>>>> But. where and when and who is the Elisha that Jesus says will come?
>>>> 
>>>> I believe the answer is, and I hope that you take this with a
>>>> theological point and not with bias, but I think it was a reference
>>>> to the Muslim prophet Mohammed.
>>>> 
>>>> Is this not "unChristian?" you ask.
>>>> 
>>>> My answer is this,
>>>> God is the ultimate creator, and the ultimate power, all religions
>>>> agree on this do they not?
>>>> 
>>>> Some may ask why Mohammed never appeared in the bible, or any of the
>>>> later religious figures.
>>>> 
>>>> Simple answer.
>>>> For each his own messenger was sent.
>>>> 
>>>> Signs in times of trouble.
>>>> 
>>>> First came Moses, in the old testament. His people were inslaved in
>>>> Egypt at the time. If you remember the old testament well, due to the
>>>> writings of the time, the Hebrews are called "God's people" in the
>>>> text. Without diving into too much detail, Moses saved the people of
>>>> Israel, and led them not only out of Egypt, but set standards for
>>>> them in a life in Israel, in accordance with the will of God.
>>>> 
>>>> Then came Jesus.
>>>> 
>>>> Jesus appeared in a time where Israel was controlled by the Romans,
>>>> and the religious leaders at the time were many times corrupt and
>>>> power hungry.
>>>> 
>>>> Notice that his teachings brought on huge crowds, but soon after, and
>>>> at the birth of Christianity, the jews that had followed Jesus split
>>>> into 2 groups.
>>>> Those who called themselves Christians, and those who stuck to the
>>>> original Torah.
>>>> 
>>>> Notice now the appearance of Mohammed.
>>>> 
>>>> He, too, like Jesus, was born to a family of humble station. They
>>>> were merchants. Soon he became well known for his honest business.
>>>> When he turned 40, he had his first vision, threw the angel Jabril,
>>>> known in English as Gabriel.
>>>> 
>>>> He too, preached in a time when there was a lack of morals and values.
>>>> Unlike Jesus, who preached to the Jews, who had been given previous
>>>> commandments, the people of Mecca at the time were polytheists.
>>>> 
>>>> And now consider my last example.
>>>> 
>>>> The Buddha.
>>>> 
>>>> This prince, born in one of the royal families of India, renounced
>>>> all wealth, and lived in poverty before finding the middle path threw
>>>> meditation.
>>>> 
>>>> He too, stressed the same exact code of behavior as Jesus, as did
>>>> Moses, as did Mohammed (peace be upon them all) but in different
>>>> language.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I believe the right way is not a single religion, or a sect, it is a
>>>> way of life.
>>>> 
>>>> If you do kindness, be generous, and humble, despite whatever
>>>> greatness you might reach, then you are, though perhaps unknown to
>>>> you, obeying the same code that almost all religious figures have
>>>> taught threw out the years.
>>>> 
>>>> And now if I say that the right way is one, why different religions?
>>>> 
>>>> Simply a matter of understanding and language.
>>>> My statement as far as that goes will be this:
>>>> pick the faith not that your parents had, but that YOU have.
>>>> 
>>>> That means,
>>>> it doesn't matter what faith your parents had, but as long as it is
>>>> something in which you are strong in faith, that is your true
>>>> religion.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks for reading, and remember no one else is better then oneself.
>>>> Converting others to your religion is simply changing the language of
>>>> a message that is already there--but I believe you should convert, as
>>>> long as you don't defame the name of God, or any of his messengers,
>>>> no matter what their name may be.
>>>> 
>>>> Jorge
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>>> 
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>> 
>> 
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