[Faith-talk] After we die WAS RE: this week's reflection - what is the right way?-understanding others

Sat Apr 30 00:26:53 UTC 2011

Thank you Joshua for the reference.
I indeed have a copy of the King James version.
I will study it this weekend.

Jorge

On Apr 29, 2011, at 8:09 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:

> Constantine, and the Council of Nicea invented the term, "trinity."
> It isn't found in scripture.
> Catholics use a total diferent book.
> We use the King James Bible.
> No wonder!
> Blessings, Joshua
> 
> On 4/29/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Very interesting point Joshua.
>> Will certainly study that.
>> And, 325 AD is actually interesting,
>> because it was after the First Vatican--in other words,
>> after the Catholic church stablished the magestirium and declaired its
>> official traditions.
>> 
>> I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the Holy Trinity,
>> but I respect your point.
>> Jorge
>> 
>> 
>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 10:52 AM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>> 
>>> Jorge, we are all creations of God, not children of God.
>>> Jesus said, that when we're in sin, we are Satan's children.
>>> When we come into Christ, we become God's children.
>>> Those that do not come into Christ, are not God's children.
>>> That's Bible.
>>> How do we come into Christ?
>>> First of all, who is Jesus.
>>> Some teach that he's the second person in the Godhead, and some teach
>>> that he's God, all by himself.
>>> Well, you need to understand, that there are not 3 persons in the Godhead.
>>> This will ruffle a few feathers on this list, but that's the truth.
>>> John 4:24 says, that God is a spirit, (not a person.)
>>> They that worship God must worship him, in spirit and in truth.
>>> The Holy Spirit is a spirit, (not a person.)
>>> Persons have flesh and blood, spirits don't.
>>> The only one that became flesh was the son.
>>> How?
>>> 1 Timothy, 3:16 tells us that God was made manifest in the flesh.
>>> God, (spirit,) manifested in the flesh, (son.)
>>> The flesh revealed God's name, (Jesus.)
>>> Colossians, 1:19 "and it pleased the Father, that in him should all
>>> fullness dwell."
>>> Colossians, 2:9. "And in him, (Jesus,) dwelleth all the fullness of
>>> the Godhead bodily."
>>> Jesus was the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and now, he's
>>> the Holy Ghost in regeneration.
>>> Matthew 28:19 says for us to baptize in the name of the Father, and of
>>> the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
>>> Notice the word is "name," (not "names.")
>>> I've just established that the name of the Father, Son, and Holy
>>> Ghost, was Jesus.
>>> That's why we baptize in Jesus's name, (Acts, 2:38.)
>>> Everyone was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, the Lord Jesus, the
>>> Lord," never, "Father Son and Holy Ghost."
>>> That didn't start, until 325 A.D.
>>> Read Acts, 2:38, Acts, 8:16, Acts, 10, Acts, 19:1/6.
>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>> 
>>> On 4/29/11, Alan Wheeler <awheeler65 at windstream.net> wrote:
>>>> Jeanette and everyone,
>>>> Let me share a couple of sections from the set of fundamental beliefs of
>>>> the
>>>> Seventh-day Adventist church, which I am going to be joinging soon. This
>>>> clearly, using only the bible, explains what happens after we die, and
>>>> how
>>>> humanity is judged. I know it's a lot of scripture to look at, but if you
>>>> all look, you'll see the truth of it.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 26. Death and Resurrection:
>>>> The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant
>>>> eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious
>>>> state
>>>> for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected
>>>> righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to
>>>> meet
>>>> their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous,
>>>> will take place a thousand years later. (Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16;
>>>> Eccl.
>>>> 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3, 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess.
>>>> 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10.)
>>>> 
>>>> 27. Millennium and the End of Sin:
>>>> The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in
>>>> heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the
>>>> wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without
>>>> living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its
>>>> close
>>>> Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to
>>>> earth.
>>>> The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his
>>>> angels
>>>> will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse
>>>> the
>>>> earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev.
>>>> 20;
>>>> 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>> On Behalf Of Jeanette
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 12:22 AM
>>>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] this week's reflection - what is the right
>>>> way?-understanding others
>>>> 
>>>> everyone seems to want to talk about God's love but not about God's wrath
>>>> against sin, it seems that it is all about us and not about a loving god
>>>> who
>>>> gives us a choice to choose His ways or not to, everything in life has
>>>> consequences so what you are saying is there are no consequences to
>>>> choosing
>>>> a different way here on earth and if you don't like the after life you
>>>> get
>>>> you can change your mind, don't see that in the bible.
>>>> as to whether folks are a child of God i kind of think it has to do with
>>>> what your definition of child of God is, if you mean since God created us
>>>> all then we are all his children, i suppose that is true.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 7:33 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] this week's reflection - what is the right way?
>>>> -understanding others
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Joshua:
>>>> are you suggesting that those who do not believe in Jesus Christ are
>>>> therefore not children of God?
>>>> Is this not hypocritical?
>>>> Does it not go against the image of the loving God Christians like to
>>>> portray?
>>>> For love is for all,
>>>> love for some is not true love.
>>>> Is that right?
>>>> 
>>>> Jorge
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 8:29 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Jorge, this is the same "new thought," "seeker sensitive," stuff, we
>>>>> see in today's churches.
>>>>> The Jews didn't accept Jesus, but the Bible is clear, that every knee
>>>>> shall bow, and every tongue shall confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord.
>>>>> There's only one way to Heaven, and that's through Jesus Christ.
>>>>> There's no way around it.
>>>>> The other religions aren't correct.
>>>>> Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no man cometh to the
>>>>> Father, but by him.
>>>>> That's what Jesus said.
>>>>> He wasn't sent to Christians, because there weren't any Christians,
>>>>> until Antioch.
>>>>> The Bible says, that they were called Christians first, at Antioch.
>>>>> Jesus was sent to the world, those who accept him are Christians.
>>>>> What constitutes a true Christian?
>>>>> Acts, 2:38 tells us where to begin our Christian walk.
>>>>> "then Peter said unto them,
>>>>> "Repent, and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus
>>>>> Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of
>>>>> the Holy Ghost."
>>>>> There are 3 steps to salvation, according to Peter.
>>>>> #1. Repentence, #2. Baptism in Jesus's name, and #3. Receiving the
>>>>> Holy Ghost, with the initial sign of speaking in other tongues, as the
>>>>> Spirit gives utterance, (see Acts, 2:4.) If you're going to call
>>>>> yourself a Christian, you need to start with the way the Apostles did.
>>>>> Just my thoughts.
>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> There is no clear answer on what the "right" way is.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Of course for us Christians it is knowing Jesus, but the other
>>>>>> religions have different perspectives.
>>>>>> Take this theologians line:
>>>>>> "Muhammad was sent to the Muslims, as Jesus was sent to the
>>>>>> Christians, as Moses was sent to the jews."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What does this tell you?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Well, if you realize the fact that the jews never accepted Jesus as
>>>>>> Christus (greek for Christ), but just as one more teacher, so to
>>>>>> speak, and that their main holiday to celebrate the glory of God is
>>>>>> passover, in which God leads the Jewish nation out of Israel, and the
>>>>>> fact that we celebrate our revelation from God, Easter, on the very
>>>>>> week, it shows you that the right way isn't set in stone.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Because our 2 religions have 2 completely different revelations, one
>>>>>> from Moses and one from Jesus, both who were messengers of God (and
>>>>>> for Christians, Jesus is part of the holy trinity, which is God) In
>>>>>> effect, both revelations were made by God on to us in different eras
>>>>>> and in different forms.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Now add to that one more layer.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In the gospel, Jesus says something very interesting after the first
>>>>>> revelation of his passion to the 12 disciples. When Peter asks,
>>>>>> "Master, why do the scribes say that Elisha must come first?"
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Jesus replied "I assure you Elisha will come." then says ".but surely
>>>>>> Elisha has already come, and man has done on to him what they will."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> That part caught my attention. If you know your old testament, you
>>>>>> know that Elisha, as known by the Christians, has already come. His
>>>>>> book is written years before the new testament even begins.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But. where and when and who is the Elisha that Jesus says will come?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I believe the answer is, and I hope that you take this with a
>>>>>> theological point and not with bias, but I think it was a reference
>>>>>> to the Muslim prophet Mohammed.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Is this not "unChristian?" you ask.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> My answer is this,
>>>>>> God is the ultimate creator, and the ultimate power, all religions
>>>>>> agree on this do they not?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Some may ask why Mohammed never appeared in the bible, or any of the
>>>>>> later religious figures.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Simple answer.
>>>>>> For each his own messenger was sent.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Signs in times of trouble.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> First came Moses, in the old testament. His people were inslaved in
>>>>>> Egypt at the time. If you remember the old testament well, due to the
>>>>>> writings of the time, the Hebrews are called "God's people" in the
>>>>>> text. Without diving into too much detail, Moses saved the people of
>>>>>> Israel, and led them not only out of Egypt, but set standards for
>>>>>> them in a life in Israel, in accordance with the will of God.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Then came Jesus.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Jesus appeared in a time where Israel was controlled by the Romans,
>>>>>> and the religious leaders at the time were many times corrupt and
>>>>>> power hungry.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Notice that his teachings brought on huge crowds, but soon after, and
>>>>>> at the birth of Christianity, the jews that had followed Jesus split
>>>>>> into 2 groups.
>>>>>> Those who called themselves Christians, and those who stuck to the
>>>>>> original Torah.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Notice now the appearance of Mohammed.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> He, too, like Jesus, was born to a family of humble station. They
>>>>>> were merchants. Soon he became well known for his honest business.
>>>>>> When he turned 40, he had his first vision, threw the angel Jabril,
>>>>>> known in English as Gabriel.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> He too, preached in a time when there was a lack of morals and values.
>>>>>> Unlike Jesus, who preached to the Jews, who had been given previous
>>>>>> commandments, the people of Mecca at the time were polytheists.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And now consider my last example.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The Buddha.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This prince, born in one of the royal families of India, renounced
>>>>>> all wealth, and lived in poverty before finding the middle path threw
>>>>>> meditation.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> He too, stressed the same exact code of behavior as Jesus, as did
>>>>>> Moses, as did Mohammed (peace be upon them all) but in different
>>>>>> language.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I believe the right way is not a single religion, or a sect, it is a
>>>>>> way of life.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If you do kindness, be generous, and humble, despite whatever
>>>>>> greatness you might reach, then you are, though perhaps unknown to
>>>>>> you, obeying the same code that almost all religious figures have
>>>>>> taught threw out the years.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And now if I say that the right way is one, why different religions?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Simply a matter of understanding and language.
>>>>>> My statement as far as that goes will be this:
>>>>>> pick the faith not that your parents had, but that YOU have.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> That means,
>>>>>> it doesn't matter what faith your parents had, but as long as it is
>>>>>> something in which you are strong in faith, that is your true
>>>>>> religion.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks for reading, and remember no one else is better then oneself.
>>>>>> Converting others to your religion is simply changing the language of
>>>>>> a message that is already there--but I believe you should convert, as
>>>>>> long as you don't defame the name of God, or any of his messengers,
>>>>>> no matter what their name may be.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> 
>>>> 
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