[Faith-talk] non-christians on this list

Sat Apr 30 05:42:10 UTC 2011

The ones that threatened pain, or death, were not true Christians.
The Nazis, were not real Christians, either.
You know that.
Blessings, Joshua

On 4/30/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> Joshua, Barbara and all,
>   Was it love that forced Muslims and Jews to convert to Christianity,
> on pain of death, in the middle ages?  Was it Christlike love that
> sent heratics and apostates to their executions, simply for
> disagreeing with the church?  Was it christlike love that sent
> millions of Jews to the gas chambers?  Was it Christlike love that
> supressed scientific knowledge for centuries, merely for contradicting
> church dogma?  Was it Christlike love that pitted Christian against
> Christian, Catholic against Protestant, Catholic and Protestant
> against Anabaptist, and all these against the rest of the world in
> bloody wanton war?  Wait...none of that ever happened, Christians
> never tried to impose our religion by force...because we're more
> loving!
>   Please understand I'm being so vehement because I have Muslim
> friends and I know, firsthand, it is not a religion of oppression any
> more than Christianity is.  The Quran has verses which say go to war
> against the infidels who attack you first...the Old Testament has
> similar verses of scripture.  Just as most Christians do not impose,
> on pain of death, their faith on anyone else...Most Muslims live by
> their scriptures and live as good neighbors and peacable citizens.  If
> Islam is a religion of oppression, Christianity oppresses just as
> much.  It is a small minority of both religions, particularly in
> moddern times, that seeks to impose their faith on others by force of
> arms.  Both Christianity and Islam have had their share of saints and
> sinners- each religion has given birth to many good people and a few
> evil ones...but please, for the love, don't pin labels on whole
> religions just because a few verses of scripture _could_ be twisted to
> support evil.  Because, if that were true, Christianity would be just
> as evil as Islam...and I can give you the Bible verses to back that up
> if you want.
>   God bless,
> Kirt
>
> On 4/29/11, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
>> Therefore, that makes it a religion of oppression.
>> Barbara
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Through the sunny fields of yesterday
>> Echo voices of children now grown,
>> Their golden peals of laughter
>> Ring upon the ivied stone.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jorge Paez
>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 11:25 PM
>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>
>> Yes.
>> but that verse is folloed by:
>> "but if they surrender, then do not strike."
>>
>>
>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 11:45 PM, Barbara Hammel wrote:
>>
>>> As I understand it, one glaring difference--among many--between Muslim
>>> and
>>>
>>> Christian is that you have the choice to accept Christ.  You are not
>>> forced to follow the strict practices.  Another difference is that
>>> Muslims
>>>
>>> are told to kill the infidels.  In the old Testament, God did tell the
>>> Israelites to kill all the people in a place.  But when Jesus came, He
>>> told us to love. We do not need to stone adulterers as Deuteronomy or
>>> Leviticus says.  The law was given to us to see that we sin.  "All have
>>> sinned and fall short of the glory of God."  When Jesus came, He asked
>>> who
>>>
>>> would cast the first stone.  Christians are taught to love the sinner but
>>> hate the sin.  If a Christian turns to a different faith, we don't
>>> disclaim them as Muslims--and others--do.
>>> Barbara
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Through the sunny fields of yesterday
>>> Echo voices of children now grown,
>>> Their golden peals of laughter
>>> Ring upon the ivied stone.
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez
>>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 6:38 PM
>>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>
>>> We are compelled by Jesus to share the gospel just as the Muslims have
>>> been instructed to spread the Quran.
>>>
>>> It is not a matter of who's right,
>>> but who's message is right for whom.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 1:12 AM, Jeanette wrote:
>>>
>>>> belonging to a church or not belonging has nothing to do with being a
>>>> Christian as i understand it.  it is the personal relationship we have
>>>> with Christ that saves us.    being a good person or not being a good
>>>> person has nothing to do with being a Christian either as i understand
>>>> it, i know a lot of folks who do not believe in any supreme being and
>>>> are
>>>>
>>>> some of the nicest folks i know, but they do not believe in Christ or
>>>> God
>>>>
>>>> or anything and if Christ is the only way to heaven then it would be
>>>> hard
>>>>
>>>> to assume they would go to heaven, like i said, if we don't have to
>>>> accept Christ as our Lord and Savior here on earth, why bother, why  not
>>>> do as we please and then worry about salvation later? there would be no
>>>> need to share the gospel if we didn't ahve to accept christ  here.
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 6:04 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I have one other comment -- hope I make sense...
>>>>> If someone lives a charitable, honest life, but does not join a
>>>>> Christian
>>>>> church perhaps because of personal upbringing, or even because of a bad
>>>>> example from a supposed Christian, then at some point in his life or
>>>>> after
>>>>> death be is exposed to the truth about Christ's teachings, I believe
>>>>> that
>>>>> person would be likely to embrace it.
>>>>> In addition, I wonder if someone who does not live a model life might
>>>>> have
>>>>> to go through some real difficulties to learn the hard way that the
>>>>> only
>>>>>
>>>>> way
>>>>> is through Christ.
>>>>> But the thing I have to believe is that whatever the judgement is of an
>>>>> individual, Jesus would make that decision in love, and He is the only
>>>>> one
>>>>> who can judge.
>>>>> In fact, I think whatever example you come up with of a "type of
>>>>> person"
>>>>> that would be judged one way or another, someone might come along who
>>>>> blows
>>>>> your stereotype out of the water... (Hmm -- no double meaning is
>>>>> intended in
>>>>> my choice of terms...)
>>>>> One thing that I wonder about, in the scriptures it says the first
>>>>> commandment is to love God with all might, mind and strength, and the
>>>>> second
>>>>> to love neighbor as self.  The thought crossed my mind that that first
>>>>> commandment might be difficult, as when great calamities happen, such
>>>>> as
>>>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>> current unbelievable tornados.  Some people blame God for everything
>>>>> that
>>>>> goes wrong.
>>>>> I think using the opportunity to pray rather than blame can help.
>>>>> Anyway, I was just thinking about it.
>>>>> --le
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeanette" <nettiecosp at yahoo.com>
>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 5:57 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> the folks who lived before Christ believed in god, they looked forward
>>>>> to
>>>>> Christ the Messiah, God reveals himself to those He chooses to reveal
>>>>> himself to.  but according to the bible Jesus is the only way, this is
>>>>> my
>>>>> personal belief i think by telling people if they are good they will go
>>>>> to
>>>>> heaven you are saying there is no need for the sacrafice Christ made on
>>>>> the
>>>>> cross. if being good is all it takes  then you are saying there is no
>>>>> need
>>>>> for hell either.
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez"
>>>>> <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 3:28 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I say Gandi is in heaven.
>>>>>> Like I said earlier, anyone who does good, and follows God's
>>>>>> commandments
>>>>>> though they don't know it obviously, is going to heaven.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because, if you think of it,
>>>>>> would all those who believed in God before Christ go to hell because
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> did not know him?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is now so much knowing him, though for us Christians we must, but
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> those who have no concept of Christ, to follow God's commandments.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is written in the Second Vatican, "for those who don't know Christ,
>>>>>> then God shall reveal on to them in ways that only He knows."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is perhaps suggesting that despite everything that is said on the
>>>>>> outside, even athiests have been shown some light?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some compulsion to do good, dispite their outwards denial of God?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 4:59 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I believe you absolutely need Jesus- but I have to reconcile that
>>>>>>> belief with the fact that most people throughout history either never
>>>>>>> heard of Christ, or had no real idea who he was.  Will someone like
>>>>>>> Gandhi, who did an incredible amount of good in this life, go to hell
>>>>>>> simply because he didn't accept Jesus as savior while he was here?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jeanette <nettiecosp at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> any  literature other than the bible is not God inspired there  fore
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> reliable. just my opinion, not criticizing anyone, just what i
>>>>>>>> believe,
>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>> you do not need Jesus to go to Heaven  then how to you explain the
>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> Him to sacrafice  His life for our sins?
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:14 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>>>> I agree with your view,
>>>>>>>>> my difference being that although all are children of God,
>>>>>>>>> only those who do good shall be saved, weather they have a religion
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And, quick FYI, apparently I was just reading that this theory has
>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>> written by
>>>>>>>>> Pope Benedict the 16th, though I can't remember his name prior to
>>>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This was also included in the Second Vatican of the Catholic
>>>>>>>>> church,
>>>>>>>>> and if anyone's interested in research on this topic by the way,
>>>>>>>>> I've found Bookshare to be a surprisingly reliable source.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:45 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jorge,
>>>>>>>>>> My church teaches that all humans are children of God.
>>>>>>>>>> Christians,
>>>>>>>>>> Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Wiccans, Atheists,
>>>>>>>>>> Satanists, murderers, rapists, everyone is literally a spirit
>>>>>>>>>> child
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> god.
>>>>>>>>>> Also, you might be interested in the idea of "anonimous
>>>>>>>>>> christianity."  I'm not going to do it justice, but it was an idea
>>>>>>>>>> advanced by a certain catholic theologian (I can't recall the
>>>>>>>>>> name)
>>>>>>>>>> that basically all people living christlike lives have access to
>>>>>>>>>> Christ's grace, though they don't know it yet.  As a Mormon, a
>>>>>>>>>> central
>>>>>>>>>> part of my faith is that, some day, either in this life or the
>>>>>>>>>> next,
>>>>>>>>>> all people will have the chance to hear the gospel of Christ.
>>>>>>>>>> Were
>>>>>>>>>> this not true, God would not be a fair and just God because,
>>>>>>>>>> throughout the ages, there have been billions of people who
>>>>>>>>>> literally
>>>>>>>>>> never even heard of Jesus Christ.  I can't believe in a God who
>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>> damn someone merely because they were never exposed to Christ in
>>>>>>>>>> mortal life, or because they chose to live by their original faith
>>>>>>>>>> instead, without really understanding what Christ offers.  So, I
>>>>>>>>>> believe that heaven will be full of Mormons and Catholics and
>>>>>>>>>> Muslims
>>>>>>>>>> and HIndus and all manner of religions...at least, full of people
>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>> believed all manner of religions while living here on earth, they
>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>> all have accepted Christ as savior and lived his commandments to
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> best of their abilities before being saved, though.  I'm just
>>>>>>>>>> rambling...but basically I believe that, just because someone dies
>>>>>>>>>> without faith in Christ, I don't believe they are ultimately
>>>>>>>>>> condemned
>>>>>>>>>> to hell unless they reject Christ later.
>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts.  I'd welcome discussion or civilized debate.
>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with you completely.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, if you look at the ancient documents and text,
>>>>>>>>>>> you will see that Christians started out as one group.
>>>>>>>>>>> Then for various reasons,
>>>>>>>>>>> divided,
>>>>>>>>>>> so in a way, we are both following the original tradition.
>>>>>>>>>>> But,
>>>>>>>>>>> that brings me to my point.
>>>>>>>>>>> What do we, as Christians, consider acceptable behavior for
>>>>>>>>>>> "children
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> God?"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I understand that our Christianity stems from our belief in Jesus
>>>>>>>>>>> Christ.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But then  how do we define "children of God?"
>>>>>>>>>>> Would we consider Muslims as "children of God", despite their
>>>>>>>>>>> views
>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus Christ being different then ours?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Or do we also define "Children Of God" how we define "Christian?"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Just food for thought.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I feel like I need to respond to this thread.  Please understand
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>> not trying to spark controversy, I don't intend to debate anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>> here,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and I'm not trying to impose my own faith on anyone.  But, with
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> disclaimer out of the way, I want to answer one point that was
>>>>>>>>>>>> made
>>>>>>>>>>>> earlier on this thread.
>>>>>>>>>>>> John, you said some of your LDS (Mormon) friends do not identify
>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves as Christian.  I think I understand why, although I
>>>>>>>>>>>> whole-heartedly proclaim myself a Christian.  It ultimately
>>>>>>>>>>>> boils
>>>>>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>>>>>> to your definition of a Christian.  If the only Christians are
>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>> who worship the Trinity as God, and confess the Nycene creed,
>>>>>>>>>>>> then I
>>>>>>>>>>>> suppose we Mormons aren't Christians.  But, by that definition,
>>>>>>>>>>>> you're
>>>>>>>>>>>> excluding some of the most Christian people among us.  Consider
>>>>>>>>>>>> Joshua
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lester, a oneness pentecostal who does not believe in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Trinity.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Would anyone here, on this list, seriously claim he isn't a
>>>>>>>>>>>> Christian?
>>>>>>>>>>>> His understanding of God as one person is as different from the
>>>>>>>>>>>> traditional Trinity as my understanding of God as three
>>>>>>>>>>>> separate,
>>>>>>>>>>>> distinctive personages who are one in purpose rather than
>>>>>>>>>>>> substance.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet I have seen his denomination attacked and criticized in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> world
>>>>>>>>>>>> for being "unChristian", just as mine has been.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So this brings me to my next point.  If Christians aren't
>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively
>>>>>>>>>>>> Trinitarians, what defines a Christian?  To me, it's obvious.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>> who accepts Christ as lord and savior and relies exclusively
>>>>>>>>>>>> upon
>>>>>>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>>>>>>> as the only means of salvation is a Christian.  For us as
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mormons
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus is not just a good moral guide for an excelent life.  He
>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> just an inspired teacher or prophet- he is a member of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> godhead,
>>>>>>>>>>>> our redemer and, ultimately, the only true savior for humankind.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Without Christ we are doomed and lost, we need his atoning
>>>>>>>>>>>> sacrifice
>>>>>>>>>>>> in our lives both to purify us now and cleanse us for eternity.
>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>> book, if you agree with that, you're a Christian.  So despite
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> numerous and significant theological differences between
>>>>>>>>>>>> Catholics
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> Protestants and Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals and Orthadox
>>>>>>>>>>>> Christians, we all have that common ground.  Are Mormons
>>>>>>>>>>>> Christian?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Are Oneness pentecostals Christian?  I answer, emphatically,
>>>>>>>>>>>> "yes!"
>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmest regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This happens sometimes, and I've known people to be really
>>>>>>>>>>>>> embarrassed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at some of the things they said. However, in this case there is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for embarrassment. i felt that the information I gave in my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reply
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be good for the whole list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blessed Easter,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:44:57PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> o> Woops...I sent a message thinking it would go just to John,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> went to the whole list.  My sincere appologies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do believe you are right in the divisions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I myself am a Catholic, but have taken the time to study the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> major
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> religions of the world (Judaism and Islam), and we're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> studying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reformation in school.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to my understanding, the majesterium mandated at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all bibles bee in Latin, therefore making it impossible for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "common
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people" to read,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while the protestants (please correct me if I'm wrong) were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> start reading the bible in common languages, believing that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be read and understood by each and every believer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am I correct?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never replied to your message earlier.  Thanks for your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about the Majesterium and Tradition.  So, if I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is your belief that the majesterium/teaching arm of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catholic church is simply clarifying the revelation already
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other words, Jesus was and the Bible was the complete
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revelation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God.  If I'm understanding right, the biggest disagreement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catholics and Protestants is a matter of interpretation of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For you, am I right in saying the interpretation provided by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tradition/majesterium is authoritativ and the only "correct"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look at scripture, while in Protestant Christianity it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the reader's own interpretation?  I know that's a huge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generalization,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but would you say I'm right there?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyways...I'm also curious about another statement you made.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> said something to the effect of believing Joseph Smith's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vissions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuine, but not valid.  So...for you, as a Catholic, do you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was misguided?  Partially inspired but ultimately mistaken
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it too far?  Inspired by the devil?  I won't get offended, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> honest opinion and I'm not going to take it personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, religious dialogue is definitely important...I'd say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> escential.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there's much to learn from all religions, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convinced God has inspired them all.  That doesn't mean I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything every faith claims, but I see the hand of God
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> throughout
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the religious world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have one other question for you.  Are you familiar with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of anonimous Christianity?  If so, what are your thoughts on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/21/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm definitely Christian, but I'm all for interrelitious
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dialog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fact, I think that is part of my particular work of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evangelization.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you go to my website, http://www.godtouches.org you will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motto is "peace, love, service". I think that my work of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evangelization
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is to spread these attitudes of Christ even in the secular
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 09:25:24PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much enjoy all the devotionals and prayer requests
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussions on here.  I'm pretty sure it's one of the few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distractions in life.  But I am curious, and I definitely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to offend, if there are any non-christian regular readers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailinglist?  I don't mean to procelyte, and I don't want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to turn into an overblown theological debate, but I'm very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in talking with and learning from people from other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> faiths.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you, and you wouldn't mind talking, would you please email
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off-list?  I won't procelyte- I won't try to baptize you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just want a friendly dialogue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/john%40godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/john%40godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/nettiecosp%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/nettiecosp%40yahoo.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lauraeaves%40yahoo.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/nettiecosp%40yahoo.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu
>