[Faith-talk] non-christians on this list

Sat Apr 30 06:01:14 UTC 2011

Joshua,
  Exactly!  The Muslims that blow themselves up and kill innocent
people aren't real Muslims, either.  That's my point!

Blessings,
Kirt

On 4/29/11, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> wrote:
> The ones that threatened pain, or death, were not true Christians.
> The Nazis, were not real Christians, either.
> You know that.
> Blessings, Joshua
>
> On 4/30/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Joshua, Barbara and all,
>>   Was it love that forced Muslims and Jews to convert to Christianity,
>> on pain of death, in the middle ages?  Was it Christlike love that
>> sent heratics and apostates to their executions, simply for
>> disagreeing with the church?  Was it christlike love that sent
>> millions of Jews to the gas chambers?  Was it Christlike love that
>> supressed scientific knowledge for centuries, merely for contradicting
>> church dogma?  Was it Christlike love that pitted Christian against
>> Christian, Catholic against Protestant, Catholic and Protestant
>> against Anabaptist, and all these against the rest of the world in
>> bloody wanton war?  Wait...none of that ever happened, Christians
>> never tried to impose our religion by force...because we're more
>> loving!
>>   Please understand I'm being so vehement because I have Muslim
>> friends and I know, firsthand, it is not a religion of oppression any
>> more than Christianity is.  The Quran has verses which say go to war
>> against the infidels who attack you first...the Old Testament has
>> similar verses of scripture.  Just as most Christians do not impose,
>> on pain of death, their faith on anyone else...Most Muslims live by
>> their scriptures and live as good neighbors and peacable citizens.  If
>> Islam is a religion of oppression, Christianity oppresses just as
>> much.  It is a small minority of both religions, particularly in
>> moddern times, that seeks to impose their faith on others by force of
>> arms.  Both Christianity and Islam have had their share of saints and
>> sinners- each religion has given birth to many good people and a few
>> evil ones...but please, for the love, don't pin labels on whole
>> religions just because a few verses of scripture _could_ be twisted to
>> support evil.  Because, if that were true, Christianity would be just
>> as evil as Islam...and I can give you the Bible verses to back that up
>> if you want.
>>   God bless,
>> Kirt
>>
>> On 4/29/11, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
>>> Therefore, that makes it a religion of oppression.
>>> Barbara
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Through the sunny fields of yesterday
>>> Echo voices of children now grown,
>>> Their golden peals of laughter
>>> Ring upon the ivied stone.
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Jorge Paez
>>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 11:25 PM
>>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>> but that verse is folloed by:
>>> "but if they surrender, then do not strike."
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 11:45 PM, Barbara Hammel wrote:
>>>
>>>> As I understand it, one glaring difference--among many--between Muslim
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>> Christian is that you have the choice to accept Christ.  You are not
>>>> forced to follow the strict practices.  Another difference is that
>>>> Muslims
>>>>
>>>> are told to kill the infidels.  In the old Testament, God did tell the
>>>> Israelites to kill all the people in a place.  But when Jesus came, He
>>>> told us to love. We do not need to stone adulterers as Deuteronomy or
>>>> Leviticus says.  The law was given to us to see that we sin.  "All have
>>>> sinned and fall short of the glory of God."  When Jesus came, He asked
>>>> who
>>>>
>>>> would cast the first stone.  Christians are taught to love the sinner
>>>> but
>>>> hate the sin.  If a Christian turns to a different faith, we don't
>>>> disclaim them as Muslims--and others--do.
>>>> Barbara
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Through the sunny fields of yesterday
>>>> Echo voices of children now grown,
>>>> Their golden peals of laughter
>>>> Ring upon the ivied stone.
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 6:38 PM
>>>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>
>>>> We are compelled by Jesus to share the gospel just as the Muslims have
>>>> been instructed to spread the Quran.
>>>>
>>>> It is not a matter of who's right,
>>>> but who's message is right for whom.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 1:12 AM, Jeanette wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> belonging to a church or not belonging has nothing to do with being a
>>>>> Christian as i understand it.  it is the personal relationship we have
>>>>> with Christ that saves us.    being a good person or not being a good
>>>>> person has nothing to do with being a Christian either as i understand
>>>>> it, i know a lot of folks who do not believe in any supreme being and
>>>>> are
>>>>>
>>>>> some of the nicest folks i know, but they do not believe in Christ or
>>>>> God
>>>>>
>>>>> or anything and if Christ is the only way to heaven then it would be
>>>>> hard
>>>>>
>>>>> to assume they would go to heaven, like i said, if we don't have to
>>>>> accept Christ as our Lord and Savior here on earth, why bother, why
>>>>> not
>>>>> do as we please and then worry about salvation later? there would be no
>>>>> need to share the gospel if we didn't ahve to accept christ  here.
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 6:04 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I have one other comment -- hope I make sense...
>>>>>> If someone lives a charitable, honest life, but does not join a
>>>>>> Christian
>>>>>> church perhaps because of personal upbringing, or even because of a
>>>>>> bad
>>>>>> example from a supposed Christian, then at some point in his life or
>>>>>> after
>>>>>> death be is exposed to the truth about Christ's teachings, I believe
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> person would be likely to embrace it.
>>>>>> In addition, I wonder if someone who does not live a model life might
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> to go through some real difficulties to learn the hard way that the
>>>>>> only
>>>>>>
>>>>>> way
>>>>>> is through Christ.
>>>>>> But the thing I have to believe is that whatever the judgement is of
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> individual, Jesus would make that decision in love, and He is the only
>>>>>> one
>>>>>> who can judge.
>>>>>> In fact, I think whatever example you come up with of a "type of
>>>>>> person"
>>>>>> that would be judged one way or another, someone might come along who
>>>>>> blows
>>>>>> your stereotype out of the water... (Hmm -- no double meaning is
>>>>>> intended in
>>>>>> my choice of terms...)
>>>>>> One thing that I wonder about, in the scriptures it says the first
>>>>>> commandment is to love God with all might, mind and strength, and the
>>>>>> second
>>>>>> to love neighbor as self.  The thought crossed my mind that that first
>>>>>> commandment might be difficult, as when great calamities happen, such
>>>>>> as
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> current unbelievable tornados.  Some people blame God for everything
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> goes wrong.
>>>>>> I think using the opportunity to pray rather than blame can help.
>>>>>> Anyway, I was just thinking about it.
>>>>>> --le
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeanette" <nettiecosp at yahoo.com>
>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 5:57 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the folks who lived before Christ believed in god, they looked forward
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> Christ the Messiah, God reveals himself to those He chooses to reveal
>>>>>> himself to.  but according to the bible Jesus is the only way, this is
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> personal belief i think by telling people if they are good they will
>>>>>> go
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> heaven you are saying there is no need for the sacrafice Christ made
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> cross. if being good is all it takes  then you are saying there is no
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> for hell either.
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez"
>>>>>> <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 3:28 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I say Gandi is in heaven.
>>>>>>> Like I said earlier, anyone who does good, and follows God's
>>>>>>> commandments
>>>>>>> though they don't know it obviously, is going to heaven.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because, if you think of it,
>>>>>>> would all those who believed in God before Christ go to hell because
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> did not know him?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is now so much knowing him, though for us Christians we must, but
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> those who have no concept of Christ, to follow God's commandments.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is written in the Second Vatican, "for those who don't know
>>>>>>> Christ,
>>>>>>> then God shall reveal on to them in ways that only He knows."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is perhaps suggesting that despite everything that is said on
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> outside, even athiests have been shown some light?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some compulsion to do good, dispite their outwards denial of God?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 4:59 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I believe you absolutely need Jesus- but I have to reconcile that
>>>>>>>> belief with the fact that most people throughout history either
>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>> heard of Christ, or had no real idea who he was.  Will someone like
>>>>>>>> Gandhi, who did an incredible amount of good in this life, go to
>>>>>>>> hell
>>>>>>>> simply because he didn't accept Jesus as savior while he was here?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jeanette <nettiecosp at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> any  literature other than the bible is not God inspired there
>>>>>>>>> fore
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> reliable. just my opinion, not criticizing anyone, just what i
>>>>>>>>> believe,
>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>> you do not need Jesus to go to Heaven  then how to you explain the
>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> Him to sacrafice  His life for our sins?
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:14 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>> I agree with your view,
>>>>>>>>>> my difference being that although all are children of God,
>>>>>>>>>> only those who do good shall be saved, weather they have a
>>>>>>>>>> religion
>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And, quick FYI, apparently I was just reading that this theory has
>>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>>> written by
>>>>>>>>>> Pope Benedict the 16th, though I can't remember his name prior to
>>>>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This was also included in the Second Vatican of the Catholic
>>>>>>>>>> church,
>>>>>>>>>> and if anyone's interested in research on this topic by the way,
>>>>>>>>>> I've found Bookshare to be a surprisingly reliable source.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:45 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge,
>>>>>>>>>>> My church teaches that all humans are children of God.
>>>>>>>>>>> Christians,
>>>>>>>>>>> Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Wiccans, Atheists,
>>>>>>>>>>> Satanists, murderers, rapists, everyone is literally a spirit
>>>>>>>>>>> child
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> god.
>>>>>>>>>>> Also, you might be interested in the idea of "anonimous
>>>>>>>>>>> christianity."  I'm not going to do it justice, but it was an
>>>>>>>>>>> idea
>>>>>>>>>>> advanced by a certain catholic theologian (I can't recall the
>>>>>>>>>>> name)
>>>>>>>>>>> that basically all people living christlike lives have access to
>>>>>>>>>>> Christ's grace, though they don't know it yet.  As a Mormon, a
>>>>>>>>>>> central
>>>>>>>>>>> part of my faith is that, some day, either in this life or the
>>>>>>>>>>> next,
>>>>>>>>>>> all people will have the chance to hear the gospel of Christ.
>>>>>>>>>>> Were
>>>>>>>>>>> this not true, God would not be a fair and just God because,
>>>>>>>>>>> throughout the ages, there have been billions of people who
>>>>>>>>>>> literally
>>>>>>>>>>> never even heard of Jesus Christ.  I can't believe in a God who
>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>> damn someone merely because they were never exposed to Christ in
>>>>>>>>>>> mortal life, or because they chose to live by their original
>>>>>>>>>>> faith
>>>>>>>>>>> instead, without really understanding what Christ offers.  So, I
>>>>>>>>>>> believe that heaven will be full of Mormons and Catholics and
>>>>>>>>>>> Muslims
>>>>>>>>>>> and HIndus and all manner of religions...at least, full of people
>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>> believed all manner of religions while living here on earth, they
>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>> all have accepted Christ as savior and lived his commandments to
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> best of their abilities before being saved, though.  I'm just
>>>>>>>>>>> rambling...but basically I believe that, just because someone
>>>>>>>>>>> dies
>>>>>>>>>>> without faith in Christ, I don't believe they are ultimately
>>>>>>>>>>> condemned
>>>>>>>>>>> to hell unless they reject Christ later.
>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts.  I'd welcome discussion or civilized debate.
>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with you completely.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, if you look at the ancient documents and text,
>>>>>>>>>>>> you will see that Christians started out as one group.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Then for various reasons,
>>>>>>>>>>>> divided,
>>>>>>>>>>>> so in a way, we are both following the original tradition.
>>>>>>>>>>>> But,
>>>>>>>>>>>> that brings me to my point.
>>>>>>>>>>>> What do we, as Christians, consider acceptable behavior for
>>>>>>>>>>>> "children
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> God?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I understand that our Christianity stems from our belief in
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus
>>>>>>>>>>>> Christ.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But then  how do we define "children of God?"
>>>>>>>>>>>> Would we consider Muslims as "children of God", despite their
>>>>>>>>>>>> views
>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus Christ being different then ours?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Or do we also define "Children Of God" how we define
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Christian?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Just food for thought.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I feel like I need to respond to this thread.  Please
>>>>>>>>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not trying to spark controversy, I don't intend to debate
>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> here,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I'm not trying to impose my own faith on anyone.  But, with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> disclaimer out of the way, I want to answer one point that was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> made
>>>>>>>>>>>>> earlier on this thread.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> John, you said some of your LDS (Mormon) friends do not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> identify
>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves as Christian.  I think I understand why, although I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> whole-heartedly proclaim myself a Christian.  It ultimately
>>>>>>>>>>>>> boils
>>>>>>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to your definition of a Christian.  If the only Christians are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>> who worship the Trinity as God, and confess the Nycene creed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> then I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> suppose we Mormons aren't Christians.  But, by that definition,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're
>>>>>>>>>>>>> excluding some of the most Christian people among us.  Consider
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joshua
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lester, a oneness pentecostal who does not believe in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Trinity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would anyone here, on this list, seriously claim he isn't a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christian?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> His understanding of God as one person is as different from the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> traditional Trinity as my understanding of God as three
>>>>>>>>>>>>> separate,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> distinctive personages who are one in purpose rather than
>>>>>>>>>>>>> substance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet I have seen his denomination attacked and criticized in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> world
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for being "unChristian", just as mine has been.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So this brings me to my next point.  If Christians aren't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Trinitarians, what defines a Christian?  To me, it's obvious.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> who accepts Christ as lord and savior and relies exclusively
>>>>>>>>>>>>> upon
>>>>>>>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as the only means of salvation is a Christian.  For us as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mormons
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus is not just a good moral guide for an excelent life.  He
>>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> just an inspired teacher or prophet- he is a member of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> godhead,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> our redemer and, ultimately, the only true savior for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> humankind.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Without Christ we are doomed and lost, we need his atoning
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sacrifice
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in our lives both to purify us now and cleanse us for eternity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> book, if you agree with that, you're a Christian.  So despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> numerous and significant theological differences between
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catholics
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Protestants and Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals and Orthadox
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christians, we all have that common ground.  Are Mormons
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christian?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are Oneness pentecostals Christian?  I answer, emphatically,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "yes!"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmest regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This happens sometimes, and I've known people to be really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embarrassed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at some of the things they said. However, in this case there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for embarrassment. i felt that the information I gave in my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reply
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be good for the whole list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blessed Easter,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:44:57PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o> Woops...I sent a message thinking it would go just to John,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> went to the whole list.  My sincere appologies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do believe you are right in the divisions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I myself am a Catholic, but have taken the time to study the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> major
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> religions of the world (Judaism and Islam), and we're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> studying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reformation in school.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to my understanding, the majesterium mandated at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all bibles bee in Latin, therefore making it impossible for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "common
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people" to read,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while the protestants (please correct me if I'm wrong) were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> start reading the bible in common languages, believing that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be read and understood by each and every believer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am I correct?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never replied to your message earlier.  Thanks for your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about the Majesterium and Tradition.  So, if I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is your belief that the majesterium/teaching arm of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catholic church is simply clarifying the revelation already
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other words, Jesus was and the Bible was the complete
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revelation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God.  If I'm understanding right, the biggest disagreement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catholics and Protestants is a matter of interpretation of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For you, am I right in saying the interpretation provided
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tradition/majesterium is authoritativ and the only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "correct"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look at scripture, while in Protestant Christianity it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the reader's own interpretation?  I know that's a huge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generalization,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but would you say I'm right there?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyways...I'm also curious about another statement you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> said something to the effect of believing Joseph Smith's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vissions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuine, but not valid.  So...for you, as a Catholic, do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was misguided?  Partially inspired but ultimately mistaken
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it too far?  Inspired by the devil?  I won't get offended,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> honest opinion and I'm not going to take it personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, religious dialogue is definitely important...I'd say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> escential.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there's much to learn from all religions, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convinced God has inspired them all.  That doesn't mean I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything every faith claims, but I see the hand of God
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> throughout
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the religious world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have one other question for you.  Are you familiar with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of anonimous Christianity?  If so, what are your thoughts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/21/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm definitely Christian, but I'm all for interrelitious
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dialog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fact, I think that is part of my particular work of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evangelization.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you go to my website, http://www.godtouches.org you will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motto is "peace, love, service". I think that my work of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evangelization
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is to spread these attitudes of Christ even in the secular
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 09:25:24PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much enjoy all the devotionals and prayer requests
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussions on here.  I'm pretty sure it's one of the few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distractions in life.  But I am curious, and I definitely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to offend, if there are any non-christian regular readers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailinglist?  I don't mean to procelyte, and I don't want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to turn into an overblown theological debate, but I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in talking with and learning from people from other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> faiths.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you, and you wouldn't mind talking, would you please
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off-list?  I won't procelyte- I won't try to baptize you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just want a friendly dialogue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/john%40godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/john%40godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/nettiecosp%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/nettiecosp%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lauraeaves%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/nettiecosp%40yahoo.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Faith-talk mailing list
>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> Faith-talk:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Faith-talk mailing list
> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> Faith-talk:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>