[Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
Joshua Lester
jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu
Sat Apr 30 08:25:39 UTC 2011
Kirt, I wasn't offended at all.
There are some good things about Islam, but what about Sura 4:7?
"If thy wife displeaseth thee, tie her to thy couch, and beat her."
That's a passage in the Koran.
Blessings, Joshua
On 4/30/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> Joshua,
> I feel like I should appologize- that last message was personally
> insulting and I regret sending it. But please understand, if I could
> send it again, the only part I'd remove would be the last sentence.
> Islam is, at the core, a beautiful religion which is so similar to
> Christianity. I know this because I know practicing Christians and
> Muslims...it's a religion which I believe is inspired, at least in
> part, by God. And it does make me angry when people who don't
> understand it belittle something sacred-imagine how you'd feel when
> people say Jesus is evil and Christianity is just a way to oppress and
> control people. Of course it's not true- but most people who say that
> don't know any better. Islam is a noble and good religion at its
> core- and it makes me mad when noble and good things are mocked and
> belittled, however ignorantly or well-intentioned. But I am sorry for
> making this personal with my last message- on that front, I ask your
> forgiveness.
> God bless,
> Kirt
>
> On 4/30/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Joshua,
>> They are told, as Christians are, to kill in self-defense. I'd
>> suggest you try and understand this from the prospective of the
>> Muslims before you make blanket statements like "muslims are
>> instructed to kill," and "Christians were never instructed to do any
>> of these things." Exodus says point-blank that you shouldn't suffer a
>> witch to live---bingo! Let's go hang lots of supposed witches because
>> the Bible says we can. Leviticus says it's ok to own slaves, even
>> going into great detail as to how they should be treated-voila! God's
>> on the side of the slave owners.
>> Don't you see what I'm saying? Everything I just wrote probably
>> sounds rediculous to you-as well it should. That's how the vast
>> majority of Muslims feel when people say the Qu'ran gives license to
>> kill or, god forbid, justifies terrorism! Think, here.
>>
>> On 4/30/11, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> wrote:
>>> Muslems are instructed to do the same things.
>>> The Christians were never instructed to do them.
>>> Christians were never told to kill, Muslems are.
>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/30/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Joshua,
>>>> What about the Salem witch trials? Those were Protestants...killing
>>>> innocent people in the name of Christ. I know you'll say people who
>>>> do that aren't real Christians- I agree with you! But the Muslims who
>>>> are Terrorists aren't real Muslims either-the same standard applies.
>>>>
>>>> On 4/30/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Joshua,
>>>>> Exactly! The Muslims that blow themselves up and kill innocent
>>>>> people aren't real Muslims, either. That's my point!
>>>>>
>>>>> Blessings,
>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/29/11, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> The ones that threatened pain, or death, were not true Christians.
>>>>>> The Nazis, were not real Christians, either.
>>>>>> You know that.
>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/30/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Joshua, Barbara and all,
>>>>>>> Was it love that forced Muslims and Jews to convert to
>>>>>>> Christianity,
>>>>>>> on pain of death, in the middle ages? Was it Christlike love that
>>>>>>> sent heratics and apostates to their executions, simply for
>>>>>>> disagreeing with the church? Was it christlike love that sent
>>>>>>> millions of Jews to the gas chambers? Was it Christlike love that
>>>>>>> supressed scientific knowledge for centuries, merely for
>>>>>>> contradicting
>>>>>>> church dogma? Was it Christlike love that pitted Christian against
>>>>>>> Christian, Catholic against Protestant, Catholic and Protestant
>>>>>>> against Anabaptist, and all these against the rest of the world in
>>>>>>> bloody wanton war? Wait...none of that ever happened, Christians
>>>>>>> never tried to impose our religion by force...because we're more
>>>>>>> loving!
>>>>>>> Please understand I'm being so vehement because I have Muslim
>>>>>>> friends and I know, firsthand, it is not a religion of oppression any
>>>>>>> more than Christianity is. The Quran has verses which say go to war
>>>>>>> against the infidels who attack you first...the Old Testament has
>>>>>>> similar verses of scripture. Just as most Christians do not impose,
>>>>>>> on pain of death, their faith on anyone else...Most Muslims live by
>>>>>>> their scriptures and live as good neighbors and peacable citizens.
>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>> Islam is a religion of oppression, Christianity oppresses just as
>>>>>>> much. It is a small minority of both religions, particularly in
>>>>>>> moddern times, that seeks to impose their faith on others by force of
>>>>>>> arms. Both Christianity and Islam have had their share of saints and
>>>>>>> sinners- each religion has given birth to many good people and a few
>>>>>>> evil ones...but please, for the love, don't pin labels on whole
>>>>>>> religions just because a few verses of scripture _could_ be twisted
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> support evil. Because, if that were true, Christianity would be just
>>>>>>> as evil as Islam...and I can give you the Bible verses to back that
>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>> if you want.
>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/29/11, Barbara Hammel <poetlori8 at msn.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Therefore, that makes it a religion of oppression.
>>>>>>>> Barbara
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Through the sunny fields of yesterday
>>>>>>>> Echo voices of children now grown,
>>>>>>>> Their golden peals of laughter
>>>>>>>> Ring upon the ivied stone.
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Jorge Paez
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 11:25 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>>>> but that verse is folloed by:
>>>>>>>> "but if they surrender, then do not strike."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 11:45 PM, Barbara Hammel wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As I understand it, one glaring difference--among many--between
>>>>>>>>> Muslim
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Christian is that you have the choice to accept Christ. You are
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> forced to follow the strict practices. Another difference is that
>>>>>>>>> Muslims
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> are told to kill the infidels. In the old Testament, God did tell
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> Israelites to kill all the people in a place. But when Jesus came,
>>>>>>>>> He
>>>>>>>>> told us to love. We do not need to stone adulterers as Deuteronomy
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> Leviticus says. The law was given to us to see that we sin. "All
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> sinned and fall short of the glory of God." When Jesus came, He
>>>>>>>>> asked
>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> would cast the first stone. Christians are taught to love the
>>>>>>>>> sinner
>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> hate the sin. If a Christian turns to a different faith, we don't
>>>>>>>>> disclaim them as Muslims--and others--do.
>>>>>>>>> Barbara
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Through the sunny fields of yesterday
>>>>>>>>> Echo voices of children now grown,
>>>>>>>>> Their golden peals of laughter
>>>>>>>>> Ring upon the ivied stone.
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 6:38 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We are compelled by Jesus to share the gospel just as the Muslims
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> been instructed to spread the Quran.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It is not a matter of who's right,
>>>>>>>>> but who's message is right for whom.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 29, 2011, at 1:12 AM, Jeanette wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> belonging to a church or not belonging has nothing to do with
>>>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> Christian as i understand it. it is the personal relationship we
>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>> with Christ that saves us. being a good person or not being a
>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>> person has nothing to do with being a Christian either as i
>>>>>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>>>>> it, i know a lot of folks who do not believe in any supreme being
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> some of the nicest folks i know, but they do not believe in Christ
>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> God
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> or anything and if Christ is the only way to heaven then it would
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> hard
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> to assume they would go to heaven, like i said, if we don't have
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> accept Christ as our Lord and Savior here on earth, why bother,
>>>>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>> do as we please and then worry about salvation later? there would
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>> need to share the gospel if we didn't ahve to accept christ here.
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "qubit" <lauraeaves at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 6:04 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have one other comment -- hope I make sense...
>>>>>>>>>>> If someone lives a charitable, honest life, but does not join a
>>>>>>>>>>> Christian
>>>>>>>>>>> church perhaps because of personal upbringing, or even because of
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>>>>> example from a supposed Christian, then at some point in his life
>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>> death be is exposed to the truth about Christ's teachings, I
>>>>>>>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> person would be likely to embrace it.
>>>>>>>>>>> In addition, I wonder if someone who does not live a model life
>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>> to go through some real difficulties to learn the hard way that
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>> is through Christ.
>>>>>>>>>>> But the thing I have to believe is that whatever the judgement is
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>> individual, Jesus would make that decision in love, and He is the
>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>> who can judge.
>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, I think whatever example you come up with of a "type of
>>>>>>>>>>> person"
>>>>>>>>>>> that would be judged one way or another, someone might come along
>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>> blows
>>>>>>>>>>> your stereotype out of the water... (Hmm -- no double meaning is
>>>>>>>>>>> intended in
>>>>>>>>>>> my choice of terms...)
>>>>>>>>>>> One thing that I wonder about, in the scriptures it says the
>>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>> commandment is to love God with all might, mind and strength, and
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> second
>>>>>>>>>>> to love neighbor as self. The thought crossed my mind that that
>>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>> commandment might be difficult, as when great calamities happen,
>>>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> current unbelievable tornados. Some people blame God for
>>>>>>>>>>> everything
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> goes wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>> I think using the opportunity to pray rather than blame can help.
>>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, I was just thinking about it.
>>>>>>>>>>> --le
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeanette"
>>>>>>>>>>> <nettiecosp at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 5:57 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> the folks who lived before Christ believed in god, they looked
>>>>>>>>>>> forward
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> Christ the Messiah, God reveals himself to those He chooses to
>>>>>>>>>>> reveal
>>>>>>>>>>> himself to. but according to the bible Jesus is the only way,
>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>> personal belief i think by telling people if they are good they
>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> heaven you are saying there is no need for the sacrafice Christ
>>>>>>>>>>> made
>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> cross. if being good is all it takes then you are saying there
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>> for hell either.
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez"
>>>>>>>>>>> <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 3:28 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I say Gandi is in heaven.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Like I said earlier, anyone who does good, and follows God's
>>>>>>>>>>>> commandments
>>>>>>>>>>>> though they don't know it obviously, is going to heaven.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Because, if you think of it,
>>>>>>>>>>>> would all those who believed in God before Christ go to hell
>>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>> did not know him?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is now so much knowing him, though for us Christians we must,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> those who have no concept of Christ, to follow God's
>>>>>>>>>>>> commandments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is written in the Second Vatican, "for those who don't know
>>>>>>>>>>>> Christ,
>>>>>>>>>>>> then God shall reveal on to them in ways that only He knows."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This is perhaps suggesting that despite everything that is said
>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> outside, even athiests have been shown some light?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Some compulsion to do good, dispite their outwards denial of
>>>>>>>>>>>> God?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 4:59 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I believe you absolutely need Jesus- but I have to reconcile
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> belief with the fact that most people throughout history either
>>>>>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>>>>>> heard of Christ, or had no real idea who he was. Will someone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gandhi, who did an incredible amount of good in this life, go
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hell
>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply because he didn't accept Jesus as savior while he was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> here?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jeanette <nettiecosp at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any literature other than the bible is not God inspired there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fore
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliable. just my opinion, not criticizing anyone, just what i
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you do not need Jesus to go to Heaven then how to you explain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Him to sacrafice His life for our sins?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:14 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] non-christians on this list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with your view,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my difference being that although all are children of God,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only those who do good shall be saved, weather they have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> religion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, quick FYI, apparently I was just reading that this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> written by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pope Benedict the 16th, though I can't remember his name
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This was also included in the Second Vatican of the Catholic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> church,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and if anyone's interested in research on this topic by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've found Bookshare to be a surprisingly reliable source.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 2:45 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My church teaches that all humans are children of God.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christians,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Bahais, Wiccans, Atheists,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Satanists, murderers, rapists, everyone is literally a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spirit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> child
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> god.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, you might be interested in the idea of "anonimous
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> christianity." I'm not going to do it justice, but it was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> advanced by a certain catholic theologian (I can't recall
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> name)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that basically all people living christlike lives have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christ's grace, though they don't know it yet. As a Mormon,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> central
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> part of my faith is that, some day, either in this life or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all people will have the chance to hear the gospel of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christ.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this not true, God would not be a fair and just God because,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> throughout the ages, there have been billions of people who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> literally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> never even heard of Jesus Christ. I can't believe in a God
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> damn someone merely because they were never exposed to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christ
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mortal life, or because they chose to live by their original
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> faith
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instead, without really understanding what Christ offers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe that heaven will be full of Mormons and Catholics
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Muslims
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and HIndus and all manner of religions...at least, full of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believed all manner of religions while living here on earth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all have accepted Christ as savior and lived his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> commandments
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> best of their abilities before being saved, though. I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rambling...but basically I believe that, just because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without faith in Christ, I don't believe they are ultimately
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> condemned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to hell unless they reject Christ later.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts. I'd welcome discussion or civilized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> debate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/28/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with you completely.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, if you look at the ancient documents and text,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you will see that Christians started out as one group.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then for various reasons,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> divided,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so in a way, we are both following the original tradition.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that brings me to my point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do we, as Christians, consider acceptable behavior for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "children
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I understand that our Christianity stems from our belief in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christ.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But then how do we define "children of God?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would we consider Muslims as "children of God", despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> views
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus Christ being different then ours?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or do we also define "Children Of God" how we define
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Christian?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just food for thought.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I feel like I need to respond to this thread. Please
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not trying to spark controversy, I don't intend to debate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I'm not trying to impose my own faith on anyone. But,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disclaimer out of the way, I want to answer one point that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> earlier on this thread.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John, you said some of your LDS (Mormon) friends do not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> identify
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves as Christian. I think I understand why,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> although
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whole-heartedly proclaim myself a Christian. It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boils
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to your definition of a Christian. If the only Christians
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who worship the Trinity as God, and confess the Nycene
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> creed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suppose we Mormons aren't Christians. But, by that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> excluding some of the most Christian people among us.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Consider
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joshua
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lester, a oneness pentecostal who does not believe in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Trinity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would anyone here, on this list, seriously claim he isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christian?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> His understanding of God as one person is as different
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traditional Trinity as my understanding of God as three
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> separate,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distinctive personages who are one in purpose rather than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> substance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet I have seen his denomination attacked and criticized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> world
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for being "unChristian", just as mine has been.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So this brings me to my next point. If Christians aren't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Trinitarians, what defines a Christian? To me, it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> obvious.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who accepts Christ as lord and savior and relies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> upon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as the only means of salvation is a Christian. For us as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mormons
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus is not just a good moral guide for an excelent life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just an inspired teacher or prophet- he is a member of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> godhead,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our redemer and, ultimately, the only true savior for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> humankind.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Without Christ we are doomed and lost, we need his atoning
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sacrifice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in our lives both to purify us now and cleanse us for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eternity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> book, if you agree with that, you're a Christian. So
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> despite
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> numerous and significant theological differences between
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catholics
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Protestants and Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Orthadox
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christians, we all have that common ground. Are Mormons
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christian?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are Oneness pentecostals Christian? I answer,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emphatically,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "yes!"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Warmest regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This happens sometimes, and I've known people to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embarrassed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at some of the things they said. However, in this case
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for embarrassment. i felt that the information I gave in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reply
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be good for the whole list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blessed Easter,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:44:57PM -0600, Kirt Manwaring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o> Woops...I sent a message thinking it would go just to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> went to the whole list. My sincere appologies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/22/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do believe you are right in the divisions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I myself am a Catholic, but have taken the time to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> study
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> major
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> religions of the world (Judaism and Islam), and we're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> studying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reformation in school.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to my understanding, the majesterium mandated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all bibles bee in Latin, therefore making it impossible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "common
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people" to read,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while the protestants (please correct me if I'm wrong)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> start reading the bible in common languages, believing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be read and understood by each and every believer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am I correct?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never replied to your message earlier. Thanks for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about the Majesterium and Tradition. So, if I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is your belief that the majesterium/teaching arm of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catholic church is simply clarifying the revelation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other words, Jesus was and the Bible was the complete
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revelation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God. If I'm understanding right, the biggest
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disagreement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catholics and Protestants is a matter of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interpretation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For you, am I right in saying the interpretation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provided
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tradition/majesterium is authoritativ and the only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "correct"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look at scripture, while in Protestant Christianity it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the reader's own interpretation? I know that's a huge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generalization,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but would you say I'm right there?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyways...I'm also curious about another statement you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> said something to the effect of believing Joseph
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Smith's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vissions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuine, but not valid. So...for you, as a Catholic,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was misguided? Partially inspired but ultimately
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mistaken
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it too far? Inspired by the devil? I won't get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offended,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> honest opinion and I'm not going to take it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, religious dialogue is definitely important...I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> escential.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there's much to learn from all religions, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convinced God has inspired them all. That doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything every faith claims, but I see the hand of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> throughout
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the religious world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have one other question for you. Are you familiar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of anonimous Christianity? If so, what are your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thoughts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/21/11, John J. Boyer <john at godtouches.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm definitely Christian, but I'm all for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interrelitious
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dialog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fact, I think that is part of my particular work of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evangelization.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you go to my website, http://www.godtouches.org you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motto is "peace, love, service". I think that my work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evangelization
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is to spread these attitudes of Christ even in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> secular
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 09:25:24PM -0600, Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Manwaring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much enjoy all the devotionals and prayer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> requests
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussions on here. I'm pretty sure it's one of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distractions in life. But I am curious, and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to offend, if there are any non-christian regular
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> readers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailinglist? I don't mean to procelyte, and I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thread
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to turn into an overblown theological debate, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in talking with and learning from people from other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> faiths.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you, and you wouldn't mind talking, would you please
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off-list? I won't procelyte- I won't try to baptize
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just want a friendly dialogue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God bless,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/john%40godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/john%40godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.godtouches.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peace, Love, Service
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/nettiecosp%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/nettiecosp%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/lauraeaves%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/nettiecosp%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/poetlori8%40msn.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> Faith-talk:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Faith-talk mailing list
>>> Faith-talk at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/faith-talk_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> Faith-talk:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/faith-talk_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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